Old Testament: No man can die for another man's sins.

XFixYourBrainX: Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. Psalm 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him.

Says by any means.

The old testament says no man can die for another mans sins, so jesus could not have sacrificed himself for all of humanities sins. He was technically a fleshly man.

God says don't idle worship. Idolatry is the worship of an idol or a physical object as a representation of a god. Well people out there who wear a cross necklace or have a cross hanging on their wall, you better get rid of those idols.
So technically that's idol worshipping, and im pretty sure God might be the kind of guy who is definitely more technical.

People focus too much on jesus and have given most of the credit to jesus as their savior.

Here is a theory.

What if jesus was really the devil in disguise to fool people into believing he died for them just to deceive people to take their eyes off of God. Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

I think that's pretty clear on that last part.

I am simply thinking out loud to start a conversation, I don't conform to any of the statements above, my hands are clean.

Zanjan: “so jesus could not have sacrificed himself for all of humanities sins”

The Biblical verses you quoted are true. Christians will counter that Christ was no ordinary human, which is also true. However, sacrifice is for everyone; anyone can do it if they choose, especially good parents.

Zanjan: Jesus was a true Martyr – one would not expect less of Him, given that sort of situation, when ordinary humans were also martyred for holding steadfastly to the truth. They all were given a choice so, to choose martyrdom is the greatest of all spiritual deeds. This is why we love our enemies - they prove our worth.

Christians have been carried along in the ravages of time, unable to recognize that true love isn’t confined to one person, in one religion.

The REALITY is that Jesus *began* His mission by sacrificing His own self to shoulder the rank of the Christ – the Messiah’s job is not for the weak of heart or for fools. Giving up His physical body to His enemies was nothing, compared to that momentous occasion.

Souls were sleepy; He came to wake them up; souls were withered and dying; His came to breathe new life into the receptive ones. He achieved that. Therefore, He also *finished* His mission before the crucifixion. He was happy to be relieved of the constant harassment and machinations of the neglectful and ungrateful.

He was saying "You did not want ME, so here, I give you my corpse".

In short, Christ's body died on the cross at the hands of men who insisted on being evil. He rose again because men insisted on being good. That’s it in a nutshell.

Zanjan: So, you're right, Pokerman - Christ didn't die for anyone's sins; He's always lived for their life in God.

XFixYourBrainX: Jesus died on the cross, another man dead and there is no "because." I am sure jesus said many things to his followers, and how people took what he said in one way or another is their point of view. And history tends to show us that people can have a pretty fucked up point of view toward what they think happened in history, if that says something about how people think.

History proves itself with so many crazy people and their ideologies no matter what the subject matter is, science, religion, philosophy, war.

And I respect your point of view, of what you think happened, based on a bunch of other view points written in a book about the history of one person.

XFixYourBrainX: Maybe he was a martyr, I don't know. But it seems the 3 biggest religions in the world have shown their terrible side at one point or another. There are people like the group that calls themselves Isis who actually believe they are doing gods work, and look at themselves as martyr's. But its not anywhere enough to say because people believe he was a good man, that alone makes him a martyr.

XFixYourBrainX: I don't think everyone loves their enemies. That sounds psychopathic at least. Love is a strong word to choose.

XFixYourBrainX: In general my point of view is, Jesus intentionally took his followers eyes off god, and swayed them into believing he was the king, but most jews were too intelligent to fall for what he was saying. In those times it was considered blasphemy to speak those things because what God had said previously to his chosen people before Jesus came was this.

Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.

He could have easily said he will have a son, or his son is beside him in heaven in any two of these verses God could have easily included his son. But sad enough he does not mention a son here.

XFixYourBrainX: I had to edit the last one.

XFixYourBrainX: Zanjan said "In short, Christ's body died on the cross at the hands of men who insisted on being evil. He rose again because men insisted on being good. That’s it in a nutshell."

I doubt those men were evil, is sounds like they were doing their job. They looked at jesus as a rebel, and someone who might one day cause a civil war, This is how the king looked at it in that day. So jesus was crucified, with the charge of claiming to be "King of the Jews"

It sounds like this is exactly what happened. Its not that hard to take one factual piece of evidence such as the reason he was charged, then we can put the pieces back together of what events lead to this conclusion, he was causing trouble and disturbing the peace of the kingdom in that day by calling himself king of the jews.

XFixYourBrainX: Well we all have a spirit, so its pretty darn conclusive that his spirit just like everyone's spirit continues to live on after our body has died. But I wouldn't called that rising from the dead?

Zanjan: Pokerman, a religious martyr is someone who has been put to death because they refused pressure to recant his/her faith to join another religion. That's all there is to it.

ISIS members are not martrys......they just sick, suicidal bullshitters. Everyone knows they're spiritually dead so, if they ARE doing any of God's work at all, it's to take themselves out of the gene pool.

"Love is a strong word to choose."

It's not romantic love. One loves having enemies; one also treats others with the respect that comes with unconditional love - that doesn't mean they like them as human beings. Psychopaths don't know how to love.

Tell me, how many names of ancient Jews do people remember today? How many today remember the name of Jesus? You know, they say it takes one to know one.

Zanjan: "Rising from the dead" has two meanings; neither apply to the Hereafter.

The first is an NDE......surely you're familiar with that. Alive-Dead- Alive. One who experiences this is never the same as before. When they physically die again, it may or may not be a second death for them.

The second is the resurrection of true spirit in those who had been spiritually sleeping or spiritually dead. Dead- Alive. They remain alive, even after physical death. These receptive ones arise to do God's Will because God, Himself, has chosen them for this.

Christ never spiritually died - He was born and remained alive even after His physical death.

The biblical reference, pertaining to the crucifixion, is actually referring to Christianity - its true spirit went underground - that is, was hidden for a time, then it re-appeared; thus, its reality was manifest.

Zanjan: "I doubt those men were evil, is sounds like they were doing their job."

Their job was to obey God's Commandments, particularly "Thou shalt not kill", and that includes being an an accomplice - getting a hit man to do the job.

We don't kill people for having a different viewpoint, ok. Religious authorities can excommunicate a person if they don't like their view but not kill them. There's no way to get around the Divine Law because it's perfect. Killing is evil, even for an atheist.

The term "son" doesn't refer to the physical. Anyone who is a true believer and obeys the Covenant and commandments is a *spiritual* son/daughter of God. This is how ancient Jews used the term......if they weren't familiar with it, the term wouldn't have existed. There was hardly any of those left when Jesus appeared - almost all the people were pretenders.

After all, this is why God has to send a Messiah, you know.

Zanjan: Religion is an organic process - that is, it follows the circle of life, just like nature. It's born, it lives it's life to the fullest potential, then withers and passes away. Yet there's always another to replace it because life produces life. This is how the Word of God is perpetuated.

Ask Christian clergy about the second coming of Christ. They'll say "Oh, that's for the OTHER people; we have our baby Jesus, thanks. We're good."

Should we tell these people Christianity is NOT in its infancy?!

You see, to even suggest the Messiah would be for Christians is to admit, like the ancient Jews, they're not up to snuff. Well, let them handle it their own way. The OTHERS, who have accepted the *Return* of Christ will just have to pray for them.