Why do non-religious people go to the Religion chat? (Page 2)

wayne elliott: Religion should be roundly discussed as it is influential in any society. In the same way that religion discriminates against those who do not agree, those who do not agree have every right to discriminate against religion. Discussion with the religious can be a tad difficult as the religious often believe they have found the only meaning of life and woe betide those who do not adhere. Hell betide, I should say - a special hell invented for everyone who is different. There is also a tendancy to equate their own dislikes and discriminations to that of their God, who will dutifully punish disbelievers and minority groups, as well as limit the freedoms and rights of a very particular majority: women. While there are fanatics in any group, there are always exceptions who may understand that decency and morality is an inate trait and not the property of religion. Religion is a personal, private choice and should not be used to restrict others.

Cenababy: well Wayne, here is a tidbit, women are treated no differently "by God" than men. Interestingly enough, Men that do not treat their wives right and/or lead them to God are held accountable and punished by that. There are no minority groups as far as God is concerned. Jesus came to lay down the laws, and if we disobey Jesus, we suffer the consequences. God makes the law and since we cannot follow the law, he is the justification "as per the bible". If you research God doesn't discriminate, "people do", all he asks is that you belong to him.

I imagine if God creates us, he can punish us for making this world a place "it was never intended to be", makes logical sense.

Decency and morality are an inate trait, really???? have you watched the world around us or the news for that matter?

ghostgeek: Yes, it's bombs away. Each one chalked with God's smiling face.

TheDoctor394: If my Christian brother in law tried to dominate his Christian wife (my sister), he'd most likely get a black eye.

Charles Darwin: This is a little off topic, but is the concept of equality between sexes a Christian, Biblical teaching or is it just our modern sense of morality being applied to it? Having read the Bible a few times and specifically thinking about parts of the Mosaic Law and the writings of Paul, I feel like even among early first century Christians, this equality concept was a bit foreign to them.

It seems to me that people tend to do what they want and they find ways to use the Bible to justify it. When Charles Darwin was on his voyage on the HMS Beagle, Darwin and the captain got into an argument about slavery. Darwin believed that such a thing was immoral, the captain thought it was Godly and cited the old testament of the Bible in his defense. Nowadays, I've heard a ton of Christians say how slavery is immoral because God views us all as equals.

@Doc's comment about his brother in law...I personally think that's exactly how it should be, but doesn't the Bible say women are in subjection to men and that men are supposed to be over them?

Is morality defined by people's religious beliefs or do they take their moral principals and apply them to their religion? I would argue the latter...and that's why you see such immoral stuff in the Mosaic Law and even some questionable stuff in the New Testament.

TheDoctor394: The roll of men and women within Christianity has, I think, always been a hot topic throughout the last two thousand years. I haven't given it a lot of thought myself, since, never having been married, it just hasn't been a big issue for me, and I have enough other topics about which I can and do pound the pulpit.

There is no doubt that the Bible has plenty of teaching, and examples, on how all human beings are seen as equally important. If we plow through all the laws of the OT, and don't just point to the ones involving killing and suchlike, we can find where God commands the Jews to respect such people as foreigners and widows, while, in the NT, we also find some radical examples of treating women with great respect.

One of the most obvious ones is Jesus talking to the woman at the well. Here was someone who would have been seen as complete dirt to Jews. Not only was she a Gentile, she was female. What's more, she was clearly an adulteress. Jewish society then would have sneered at her, if in a good mood. Which is why she was taken back when Jesus sat down and talked with her. He treated her with respect, unlike any other Jewish male at the time.

We then have the fact that Jesus, when rising from the dead, first appeared to women. Again, amazing. Men were to be trusted, not women. For the Son of God, the Messiah, to first announce His return to females, went against everything general society believed in.

On the other hand, we have Paul's letters, which say it's disgraceful for a woman to talk in church. We're told man is boss, and the woman is to submit to him. But, along with all this, we have examples where women clearly held some leadership positions, as we can see from Paul sending best wishes to people who clearly had female names. Then there's Acts 21, which refers to the four daughters who prophesied, and, back in the OT, at least one of the judges was a woman, Deborah.

With all this, it's not surprising that it's been a long debated topic, and I don't have all the answers myself in regards to rolls.

But I do certainly believe that the Bible teaches that all human beings, no matter what creed or gender, are equally important, are of equal value. We see that in the Old Testament and in the New, and we also see that through church history. Yes, some Christians have been shocking in that way. But many others have been diligent in seeing everyone as important as each other, and if we study church history, we can see that Christians have been very instrumental in such things as abolishing slavery and seeing that women are far better treated than used to be the case in society.

wayne elliott: Cenababy, to use a Zanjanism, "You need to read my post again." It is about religious people, not god. Religion holds women as second class. And yes, decency and morality are indeed an inate trait. Really. You've either got it or you don't. The major problems in the world around us are religion related. Haven't you "watched the world around us or the news for that matter?"

I agree with what Charles Darwin says in his post.

shadowline: It's a bit over-generalized to say that "religion" treats women as second class. Some do, some don't. Some did in the past and don't now. In the developed world, which is really a secular society, women would be unlikely to remain in a religion that really treated them as second class, at least a religion that has always been a part of Western culture and experience. Now that the West is filling up with non-Westerners, it is of course also filling up with non-Western mindsets and experience.

TheDoctor394: It should also be remembered that history has plenty of non-religious people treating women badly.

Cenababy: I agree with Doc said above. In my faith which happens to be "Christian", women are certainly not treated as second class citizens. example: my Parents, they discuss everything, however; my mother trust her husband enough to make the final verdict, iknowing she married well, he is extremely intelligent and has made little to no mistakes that have affected them adversely! Agreed with Doc about how Jesus treated women. there even in today's society have to be rolls, women played "I am in charge of the house and kids roll" while Men worked, took care of and provided for the loved ones, as God wanted it after the fall. Today in our society you see this breaking down in vast amounts as women are no longer (for the most part) staying home, in control of the home and the children, look what this has done to our society as a whole? If we look hard, I can see the pitfalls this has caused. Jesus taught: Men treat your wives as I treat the Church!!!!!
Now do you see what I am saying? How did Jesus treat the church? AND, if we look at what the church was, it was HIM, church is the assembly of christians, so in saying this, we are to treat women just as men treat men and/or themselves, ourselves, with no less love and respect as each of us. Jesus cherished the church, we are to cherish women and the widows! Example: My mom's husband puts her on a pedastal, if she utters one whimper, he comes running!

I think people get really backwards as to what they read and take from it in the bible and/or in regrads to the bible. Secondly, slavery was not what it is today, and get so irritated with this topic. Slavery then was about debt and survival. It was not just grabbing all those less fortunate off the streets and saying, boy, you best ddo what I say. God did NOT condone this but allowed for the times. I think we need to re-read some of this to get a better understanding. Also, if you will read, it tells how people offered themselves as slaves to stay alive, as the times were hard! Trying to invoke today or the past 200 years is not in Jesus times, although the bible is very clear "what is to come".

Cenababy: PS, I would also like to add "as a women" that "some" women perhaps need a kick in the knickers for getting too big for their own knickers!!!. FUNNY example of this, i listened to a show one day and how many women were complaining about "men" and how men treat women, how they act and their lack of responsibility in the home I was furious, I yelled at the screen, you want better men? WHO RAISES THEM? WOMEN~! you want better, then raise better~! Women in the last 40 years have become in my gestimation a smidge to big for their knickers, and have torn down the very fabric that God said, "do it this way", and try to de-masculate men, as we see plainly in today's society, this does more harm than good! Women need to stop trying to be men and let men be men!

TheDoctor394: One of the ironies of all this is (which I think I've mentioned), Christianity has been very instrumental in helping women get a much bigger status than they used to have in the ancient world, as well as fighting, with some success, against slavery.

Cenababy: WAYNE, not in my faith it doesn't. read above posts!

Cenababy: sorry for the typo's and wire wouldn't let me correct, such as, roll=roles

TheDoctor394: *hoses Cena down*

Cenababy: Doc.

TheDoctor394:

Lumpenproletariat: If a non-believer enters the chatroom, it's an invitation to tell them why they should believe, not something to be dismayed about.

Believing should be based on reasons, and evidence.

Maybe some religious beliefs are illogical and should be questioned. But belief in Christ is based on the evidence of history, in written accounts from the 1st century telling of Christ's miracle acts. So if your Christ faith is questioned, you can refer them to that evidence, and show that Christ faith is based on evidence and is not "blind."

I wish there was a chatroom here where these questions were discussed and argued, by participants who disagree in their beliefs, instead of everyone just going off to their separate segregated room to communicate only to those they agree with.

Zanjan: Doctor: "Christianity has been very instrumental in helping women get a much bigger status than they used to have in the ancient world, as well as fighting, with some success, against slavery":

This isn't a fair claim. Christianity was never against slavery; Christ was against abuse of slaves and poor treatment of women.

Remember, the ancients had no prisons. Instead of POWs, they put a conquered people to good use. Back then, a good slave could eventually earn his freedom. In Christianity, the man was the head of the household and still is - that's not equal rights. In a predominantly Christian country, women had to march and hold rallies to get anyone to admit their folly.

Christians forgot their own teachings and ancient kindnesses were abandoned. Historically, slaves and women had been inordinately abducted and severely abused, getting worse all the time - Christians were responsible for those unspeakable horrors.

Of course, not all of them but they ALL let it happen. They had a chance to stop it because they were in political power but none lifted a finger for justice.

Then God said "Enough! This will end!."

God sent a new Revelator, Who forbid slavery and bestowed equal rights on women. Followers of this Faith spread out into the world and delivered that divine message at every level in society, particularly every nation's leaders. This was Baha'u'llah, GOD's instrument.

When God commands, it happens. Thus, a new consciousness swept over the world. Christians knew if they didn't also work on that, they'd be experiencing God's displeasure. As a result, there was a civil war in the USA to settle the issue.

Zanjan: Lump: "instead of everyone just going off to their separate segregated room to communicate only to those they agree with."

Pray tell, where would be the common ground if they opposed everything? There wouldn't be anything to talk about. You'd be talking about horses and I'd be talking about cars.

If, oth, one talks about horses and the other about donkeys.......there's a common interest.

Zanjan: How do I approach the atheist? I don't. They approach me. It's always going to be that way because I have no interest in war. If they're on the side of peace, then they're stepping into my world.

Lumpenproletariat:

Why do anti-religionists go to the religion chat?

Obviously, to bash religion and get themselves ejected from the room.

Lumpenproletariat:

By contrast, why do anti-religionists avoid the Historical Jesus chat room?

Because when they did enter the room, intending to debunk the "gospel" accounts, they're given the evidence that Jesus had miracle power, did the miracle healing acts, and rose back to life after he was executed. And they can't handle the truth, so they stomp out, huffing and puffing and snorting their slogans that the miracles could not have happened, while not having any facts.

And so they eject themselves, unlike other rooms where they get ejected for expressing the incorrect ideas.

ducati996s2001: people who believe in a god need to be enlightened, they have no idea about reality & have no proof of a god. It's all in their heads. They need to get their heads out of a book that says there is a god & look at the real world because there is no god in the real world or universe. Look at zanyjan, she reads all the fantasy books about her religion & has no pertinent answers as to what is really going on. What's really going on is hatred, murder, rape & a multitude of other 'sins'. If her god has solutions then why don't they work.

Zanjan: "What's really going on is hatred, murder, rape & a multitude of other 'sins'."

In the midst of that cloud of horrors, what's really going on is some beautiful work - kindness, helpfulness, healing, agreement, friendliness, generosity, and happiness abounding. Despite the dreary gloom, the sun still shines. I'd say God's work is still working.