Religion is the Biggest Joke on the Planet (Page 3)

deuce916: On the other hand, maybe you have no chance of finding the truth. In which case stick to religion.

Cenababy: No deuce, what you are getting is what he is on about. See he is giving the answers of what most athiest say, we just happen to POOF BLAM here we are. It is you who doesn't get it, you never answered his questions.

So poof, one day nothing made us and yet we have all the organs and details we do, one day poof and we all have "different " personalities, for no reason some just mutated freckles and others did not, some are genius and some aren't just for no reason except the muted differently, right? how is it my Mother didn't mutate, and I am a carbon copy of my Dad, except he is male? JUST POOF and I happened about? who was the very first human being then, what did that human being mutate from? where did the Female come from, and why did she just POOF and was female with all her organs, the only to give birth, and if you say evolution, where did the FIRST COME FROM.

See it is very easy to understand why athiests say what they do, they have no proof and don't understand the beginning and yet for a Christian we realize, understand that we did not just POOF BANG and here we are. Evolution, mutation does NOT explain why all the differences between us and why a child can be an almost exact carbon copy of her father, or his mother.

EXPLAIN THAT, then I am sure Hydro can explain to you why all the suffering!f

or perhaps you can just say, oh that child suffering just POOF BANG and was mutated wrongly!

nice try, no cigar!

Cenababy: ps one more thing, why is it that most genetic disorders are not first time generational, but come from one of the parents? explain that!

deuce916: But you believe that POOF - god made us, you're a retard.

deuce916: I can't believe you're 55 years old & haven't learnt anything about life yet.

chronology: Genetic Disorders will always be a contentious subject to some people. One of the reasons the human race is such a mess, and boy is it a mess compared with the animal kingdom, is the result of the Flood mentioned in Genesis.

While Genesis says 'all mankind was killed except Noah and his family' Genetics experts would disagree, they put the number of surviving humans at around 2000 to 8000, that is a really small Gene Pool to have for a species. deuce I know you will say 'where is the proof for this' well there are indicators in Genetics that can suggest the Gene Pool became very small at some points in history, just 'when' will always be disputed. We know for a fact the great Flood was around 12.500 years ago, we are still discovering evidence today for that event. Oil Company Explorers working in the North Sea have discovered the remains of a civilisation that lived on what is now Sea Bed which they suggest was wiped out overnight by a devastating Tsunami. In other parts of the world, the Flood appears to have been less dramatic, Water levels seem to have slowly risen over the day giving people a chance to escape to boats or high ground.

A curious point as well is that everyone at the time of the Flood spoke the same language, there must have been local dialects, but the language was the same all over the world. Language experts were really surprised at this. They have discovered that languages have become simpler and easy to learn and understand as time has gone by. This is the opposite of what they expected to discover. Genesis says it was in Iraq that God confused human language at Babel, overnight people lost the ability to understand each other and there was absolute confusion everywhere.

Cenababy: Deuce, I am a retard huh? Nice. No here is the deal, I don't have a screwed up, negative way of looking at life. And if you think my believing in God, and trying to be a better me is being a retard...then you my friend are the retard!

Cenababy: Interesting take Chron!

chronology: It is the language point that mystifies me. Linguists have no idea where spoken language comes from. Some suggest it grew from grunts and slobbering sounds from Apes who fought over meat and females, but leading linguists say that explanation is pure nonsense. 'I have no idea' answered one linguist with decades of research under his belt when asked where language came from. 'Language simply appeared instantly among humans' he added.

Well Guys, people have other explanations, but if you believe the Tower of Babel explanation you are in good company, some of the world's leading language experts would concur, even if they thought the Bible part of the story was silly.

Cenababy: yes seems babel was the curse or blessin? lol
and why we were divided.

ghostgeek: If there was a flood some 12,500 years ago, surely it had something to do with the ending of the last ice age?

ghostgeek: As for language, there must have been many existing by then, seeing that humans had spread far and wide.

deuce916: What can you say to a retard like Cenababy (crybaby) that makes any sense?

Metaverseguy: All those fables are just children's tales to impress them with God's power and might. It's just a simple version of what really happened. And not many children would sit still long enough to look at the cave paintings, and other signs of language used throughout the world that pre-date the young-Earth's view of the world 35,000 years ago.

defibsrus: Stop talking about "god" as if it were a real thing, watch Christopher Hitchins videos on youtube and cop on people!

defibsrus:
this is a reasonable explanation as to why religion is a "Joke".
I challenge any god fearing people to watch it in it`s entirety and come up with some plausible retort!

Cenababy: don't care too. think and believe as you wish!

HydroMan: In 2006, atheist Sam Harris said,

“If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or religion, I would not hesitate to get rid of religion” [Sam Harris, The Sun: The Temple of Reason by Bethany Saltman, September 2006, issue 369].

Here we can see just how dangerous some atheists think. Harris considers religion so terrible, that if he had the choice, he would choose to eradicate religion rather than rape

defibsrus, if you want to challenge people and their belief in God, at least use a source other than sam harris - I certainly am not going to accept any raitonal claim from someone who thinks religion is worse than rape, maybe you do defibsrus, but not me

Geoff: Excuse me, don't cherry pick quotes and then repeat them out of context. That's part of an answer to a question, so let's have the entire question and answer.

--

Saltman: Your analogy between organized religion and rape is pretty inflammatory. Is that intentional?

Harris: I can be even more inflammatory than that. If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or religion, I would not hesitate to get rid of religion. I think more people are dying as a result of our religious myths than as a result of any other ideology. I would not say that all human conflict is born of religion or religious differences, but for the human community to be fractured on the basis of religious doctrines that are fundamentally incompatible, in an age when nuclear weapons are proliferating, is a terrifying scenario. I think we do the world a disservice when we suggest that religions are generally benign and not fundamentally divisive.
http://thesunmagazine.org/issues/369/the_temple_of_reason?page=2

Geoff: Also, it should be noted that there is a fundamental difference between religion and faith.

Faith is the belief of an individual, be it faith a deity, guardian angels, or the healing power of rocks.

Religion is the organisation of a belief structure around that faith, and while in a benign sense it can be used to provide comfort and solace to those who follow it, it is also a very powerful means of controlling them.

Take ISIS for instance. While I would happily admit that the beliefs they follow are so far corrupted from what most Muslims believe that it can hardly be called Islam any more, it is still a religion and still one that ensnares thousands of people into doing horrific acts and thinking that they are doing God's work.

With religion or without it, you will have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but it takes a powerful ideology akin to a religion to make good people do bad things and then still think they are doing good.

HydroMan: If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or religion, I would not hesitate to get rid of religion” [Sam Harris, The Sun: The Temple of Reason by Bethany Saltman, September 2006, issue 369].
simple fact, sam harris would rather remove religion than rape. Im not interested in his rational view on disproving God's existence.

HydroMan: atheists have caused more bloodshed than any religion

The Soviet Union. Communism was the major political result of the atheistic deviation of the 19th century. Communist regimes wished to spread atheism throughout society and destroy religion. The most notable spread of militant and Communist atheism was achieved through the success of the 1917 Russian Revolution, which brought the Marxist-Leninists to power.

Vitalij Lazarʹevič Ginzburg, a Soviet physicist, wrote that the "Bolshevik communists were not merely atheists but, according to Lenin's terminology, militant atheists." [On Superconductivity and Superfluidity: A Scientific Autobiography, by Vitalij Lazarʹevič Ginzburg. Springer, 2009. p.45].

Russian communist revolutionary Vladimir Lenin wrote “Down with religion and long live atheism; the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!” [The Attitude of the Workers Party, 1909] and "A Marxist must be a materialist, i.e, an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist who struggles against religion” [Vladimir Lenin Samtliche Werke Vienna, Verlag fur Literatur und Politik, 1925, p.281].

In 1929, Soviet politician Nikolai Bukharin called for the extermination of religion "at the tip of the bayonet" [John Koehler. The Soviet Union's Cold War against the Catholic Church. Pegasus Books, 2009, p. 6.]

In 1929 Yemelyan Yaroslavsky, leader of the League of Militant Atheists declared, “It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept... If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done”. [Alfred McClung Lee, Elizabeth Briant Lee. The Fine Art of Propaganda. Octagon Books, 1972, p. 90.]

In 1932, Yemelyan Yaroslavsky said, “There can be no doubt that the fact that the new state of the USSR led by the communist party, with a program permeated by the spirit of militant atheism, gives the reason why this state is successfully surmounting the great difficulties that stand in its way…” [Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50.]

These statements make it quite clear that there have been people who have used their atheistic and anti-religious views to commit terrible acts of crime. The persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union was the result of the violently atheist Soviet government.

Militant atheism was central to the ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union [Becker, Winfried. "Diplomats and missionaries: the role played by the German embassies in Moscow and Rome in the relations between Russia and the Vatican from 1921 to 1929." The Catholic Historical Review 92.1 (2006)]

Convinced atheists were considered to be more virtuous individuals than those of religious belief [Froese, Paul. "'I am an atheist and a Muslim': Islam, communism, and ideological competition." Journal of Church and State 47.3 (2005)]

Soviet authorities forbade the criticism of atheism or of the state's anti-religious policies; such criticism could lead to forced retirement, arrest and/or imprisonment.[ John Anderson, Religion, State and Politics in the Soviet Union and Successor States, Cambridge University Press, 1994, pp 9 - Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987). pg 84. - Prot. Dimitri Konstantinov, Gonimaia Tserkov' (New York:Vseslavianskoe izdatel'stvo, 1967) pp 286-7, and (London:Macmillan, 1969) chs 4 and 5]

The Soviet Union was committed to the destruction of religion, and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept [Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50].

Militant atheists had signs that read, “Religion is the narcotics of the people” and “Religion is the poison of society,” a reference to Karl Marx's statement of "Religion is the Opiate of the Masses." [Gonzales, Kevin (27 August 2011) ‘Enoch Militant Atheist Survivor’]

44 anti religious museums were opened and the largest was the 'The Museum of the History of Religion and Atheism' in Leningrad's Kazan cathedral ["Antireligious Museum" (in Russian). Saint Petersburg Encyclopaedia]

Anti-religious education was introduced beginning in the first-grade in 1928 and anti-religious work was intensified throughout the education system. At the same time, in order to remove the church's intellectuals and support official propaganda that only backward people believed in God, the government conducted a massive purge of Christian intellectuals, most of whom died in the camps or in prison [N Vozenesensky, 'Imena i sud'by' and 'Materialy k istorii Akademii nauk', Pamiat', a historical miscellany of samizdat (respectively: no. 1, Moscow, 1976- New York: Kronika Press, 1978; and no. 4, M., 1979 - Paris: YMCA Press, 1981) pp. 353 and 459.]

Actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals [Father Arseny 1893-1973 Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father. Introduction pg. vi - 1. St Vladimir's Seminary Press - L.Alexeeva, History of dissident movement in the USSR, Memorial society - The Washington Post Anti-Communist Priest Gheorghe Calciu-Dumitreasa By Patricia Sullivan Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, November 26, 2006; Page C09 - A.Ginzbourg, "Only one year", "Index" Magazine]

In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed. It is also estimated that 50,000 clergy had been executed between 1917 and the end of the Khrushchev era. [Time Magazine, ‘Cross Meets Kremlin’, by Richard N. Ostling, Sunday June 24 2001].

During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot [Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). ‘A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia’. Yale University Press. p. 165.See also: Richard Pipes (2001). ‘Communism’: A History. Modern Library Chronicles. p. 66.]

The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million; “Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.” [James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, p. 427] “In all, it is estimated that some 15 to 20 million Christians were martyred under the Soviet regime” [David Barrett, “World Christian Trends”, Pasadena: William Carey Library, 2001, cited by David Taylor, ”21 Signs of His Coming: Major Biblical Prophecies Being Fulfilled In Our Generation”, Taylor Publishing Group, 2009, p. 220] ”over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, [Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment p.4]

In 1995, the Russian Commission for the Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression reported that 200,000 clergy were massacared as part of Vladimir Lenin’s program of ‘merciless terror against the Church’. Documents relate how clergymen, monks and nuns were crucified on royal gates and shot in the basements of the Cheka, scalped, strangled, drowned and submitted to other bestial tortures [Alexander Yakovlev, Chairman. Commission for the Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression].

American writer Patrick Glynn has this to say on atheism in the Soviet Union: “As historians penetrate the circumstances of the Communist collapse, it is becoming clearer that the Soviet elite was itself in the throes of an atheistic crisis of faith. Having lived under an atheistic ideology, …the Soviet system suffered a radical demoralization, in every sense of that term. People, including the ruling elite, lost all sense of morality and all sense of hope” [Patrick Glynn, "God: The Evidence, The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Postsecular World", Prima Publishing, California, 1997, pp. 161-62]. Similarly, Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn wrote, “Atheism is the core of the whole Soviet system” [The Oak and the Calf, memoir by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, 1975]

The League of Militant Atheists (also known as the Society of the Godless, and Union of the Godless) was an atheistic and anti-religious organisation that developed in the Soviet Union under the influence of the ideological and cultural views and policies of the Soviet Communist Party from 1925 to 1947. Used to propagate militant atheism, the League consisted of Party members, members of the Komsomol (youth division of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union), workers and military veterans. Guided by Bolshevik principles of antireligious propaganda and party's orders with regards to religion, the League aimed at exterminating religion in all its manifestations and forming an anti-religious scientific mindset among the workers. It propagated atheism and scientific achievements. It also conducted 'individual work' (a method of sending atheist tutors to meet with individual believers to convince them of atheism, which could be followed up with harassment if they failed to comply). [Across the Revolutionary Divide: Russia and the USSR, 1861-1945 by Theodore R. Weeks, John Wiley & Sons, 1st edition, 2010: "Antireligious Campaigns] The League's slogan was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism", which was meant to tie in their atheist views with economy, politics, and culture. The League was led by a Russian atheist and anti-religious political activist named Yemelyan Yaroslavsky, and was patronized by Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin. The newspaper Bezbozhnik (Godless, Atheist) (1922–1941), founded and edited by Yemelyan Yaroslavsky, played a significant role in the League's establishment, and had a wide network of correspondents and readers.

All members of the Komsomol were obligated to join the League, and it directed all members of the CPSU to support the League's work. The extreme character of the line to be taken against religion is described; “All religions, no matter how much they 'renovate' and cleanse themselves, are systems of idea... profoundly hostile to the ideology of... socialism... Religious organizations... are in reality political agencies... of class groupings hostile to the proletariat inside the country and of the international bourgeoisie... Special attention must be paid to the renovationist currents in Orthodoxy, Islam, Lamaism and other religions... These currents are but the disguises for more effective struggle against the Soviet power. By comparing ancient Buddhism, and ancient Christianity to communism, the Renovationists are essentially trying to replace the communist theory by a cleansed form of religion, which therefore becomes more dangerous” [Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) p. 55.]

The League was a nominally independent organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism. It published newspapers, journals, and other materials that lampooned religion; it sponsored lectures and films; it organized demonstrations and parades; it set up antireligious museums; and it led a concerted effort telling Soviet citizens that religious beliefs and practices were wrong and harmful, and that good citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview [Daniel Peris, Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless Cornell University Press, 1998].

The League of Militant Atheists and Party activists wrecked churches and harassed believers. No religion was spared [A Thousand Years of Christianity in Ukraine: An Encyclopedic Chronology by Osyp Zinkevych by Andrew Sorokowski (1988), Smoloskyp Publishers and the National Committee to Commemorate the Millenium of Christianity in Ukraine, p. 206]
Public burnings of icons and religious books, carnival parades with mock priests and rabbis, and so on. The league eventually went so far as to sponsor competitions between baptized and unbaptized infants to see which would be healthier and grow faster. Similarly, contests were held to see if fields blessed by priests would flourish better than fields fertilized with manure. Also, the practice of so-called Godless Meteorology was used to demonstrate that prayers do not change the weather. [Denis Janz (9 April 1998). World Christianity and Marxism. Oxford University Press.]

The League made it a priority to remove religious icons from the homes of believers [Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. The Society for the Scientific Study of Religion, 2004, p. 40]

The League published newspapers, journals, and masses of anti religious literature that mocked religious beliefs. [Nathaniel Davis, A Long Walk to Church: A Contemporary History of Russian Orthodoxy, Westview Press, 2003, p. 9 - Robert Service, A History of Modern Russia, from Nicholas II to Putin p 136 ]

The League ensured that Christian clergy did not visit believers in their homes, and supervised the establishment of the League of Militant Atheists in the army. [Sabrina Petra Ramet (2005). Religious Policy in the Soviet Union. Cambridge University Press]

The League reduced the number of religious communities of all faiths from 50,000 in 1930 to 30,000 by 1938 and 8,000 by 1941. The last figure includes, however, 7,000 communities in the annexed western territories (so that only 1,000 actually remained in the rest of the country) [Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) p. 68.]

The League trained a massive number of antireligious propagandists and other workers. This work included lecture cycles. The League of Militant Atheists attempted to control and exploit the Proletarian Freethinkers, a group founded by socialists in 1925, in order to diminish the influence of religion, particularly Catholic Christianity, in Central and Eastern Europe [Dennis J. Dunn. The Catholic Church and Russia: Popes, Patriarchs, Tsars, and Commissars. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2004, p. 85.]

The League of Militant Atheists aided the Soviet government in killing clergy and committed believers [Peter N. Stearns. The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World. Oxford University Press, 2008, p. 278.]

Under the slogan, "the Storming of Heaven," the League of Militant Atheists pressed for "resolute action against religious peasants" leading to the mass arrest and exile of many believers, especially village priests. By 1940, "over 100 bishops, tens of thousands of Orthodox clergy, and thousands of monks and lay believers had been killed or had died in Soviet prisons and the Gulag" [Theodore R. Weeks. Across the Revolutionary Divide: Russia and the USSR, 1861-1945. John Wiley & Sons, 2011.]

The League of Militant Atheists took a violent approach to those who would not accept the League's message. For example, "bishops, priests, and lay believers" were "arrested, shot, and sent to labour camps" [Sabrina Petra Ramet (10 November 2005). Religious Policy in the Soviet Union. Cambridge University]

The League of Militant Atheists shows us that atheists will commit evil in the name of atheism.

The People's Republic of China is officially an atheist state, as atheism is endorsed and promoted by the ruling Chinese Communist Party.When the People's Republic of China was established, militant atheist functionaries compelled the Party to impose control on and limit religious suppliers. Chinese Communist revolutionary Mao Zedong (who is responsible for making China an atheist state) killed tens of millions during his Great Leap Forward and many more during the purges and slaughters of the Cultural Revolution. In 1955, Chinese communist leader Chou En-lai declared, "We Communists are atheists”. Fortunately today, the efforts of China's atheist leaders in promoting atheism is increasingly losing its effectiveness as the number of Christians in China is rapidly growing

Cuba. Between the late 1960s and late 1980s, the state of Cuba adopted a policy of militant atheism. Under the rule of Fidel Castro, Christian priests who spoke out against the injustices of the atheist régime were arrested. In addition, militant atheism was an integral part of Cuba's school curriculum. Moreover, 'religious believers were fired from their jobs and sent to labor camps for "re-education".' The effect of these factors led to a population that was "largely atheist

Published in 2008, Theodore Beale’ book, The Irrational Atheist (also known as The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens) notes the following; “Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … . “The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined… “The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand. ..“Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation”.

The historical fact is that the rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism (removal of religion and God) has produced more evil, more bloodshed, and more conflict than religion

Geoff: Thank you for that massive copypasta tract. You could summarise your points, post pertinent points (from what could be seen as anti-atheist propaganda), and post links. It might also be worth asking where such statements as 'Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules' are referenced from.

Overall, it must be stated that atheists are not a unified group. There is no overarching set of beliefs of atheists, but most (certainly in the developed world) are moral people. As evidence I invite you to look at the current religious affiliations (or lack of them) of those currently incarcerated in the United States.

I am not saying that all atheists are good people, just that they're by-and-large no worse or better than anyone else.

Communism, particularly under Mao (who killed more than Hitler and Stalin combined) was more akin to a religion. Much like North Korea, he was elevated to a position of a living god, although to a degree so it was under Stalin. So, I would suggest that Harris' view of religion would include Communism of that stripe.

defibsrus: I was conducting an experiment to see how closet minded the religious dogmatists were. Thank you for confirming that your unwilling or perhaps more importantly, unable, to look at a rational argument.
Atheists are not your enemy, fear of your imaginary friend is!

Cenababy: NO, you are playing with people trying to get them, period. You have/had no good intentions, and as a Christian, I find it pathetic. If you don't want to believe in our faith, that is your deal, but do not under any circumstances believe for one second, that we will bow down, turn our backs on our GOD. The End.