God Never Spoke to Moses or the Hebrews (Page 22)

ghostgeek
ghostgeek: When it's clear that the text deceives at one point, how is it possible to know that it isn't deceiving elsewhere as well?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Granted, there are a few inaccuracies in the Bible, particularly where time is concerned, but it's pretty hard to screw up the list of laws. No one has ever proven the laws were a mistake.

Furthermore, one should have hard evidence to challenge anything written. You don't have that. If you did, you could p[rove what the exact numbers were. I see no proof to the contrary.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Why did Josiah tear his clothes after he heard the book of the law being read? It's as though he knew nothing about all those laws that Moses supposedly presented to the Israelites.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ancient people were odd. They also dumped ashes on themselves when upset. But hey, it's better than running naked through the streets or setting yourself on fire.

I should think the clothes rending would be out of anger - better than throwing dishes at someone or shooting the messenger. I'd be angry too at whomever deliberately hid the scroll. Since it was one of his relatives, that would be coloured with grief and shame for his family.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: In Deuteronomy the Levites are commanded to read the Book of the Law to the people every seven years, yet only two kings seem to have got around to seeing this was done: Josiah and Josiah and Jehoshaphat. Doesn't that seem a little strange, seeing that Moses was this great prophet that everybody supposedly reveared? It's as if nobody cared what the old bugger commanded. Somebody put the scroll containing the Book of the Law on a shelf and left it to collect dust for hundreds of years.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It's as if the antics of Moses were considered peripheral in the scheme of things. Just the ravings of a bit player.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I've come to the conclusion that Moses appeared on the scene long after the Hebrews had found themselves a cosy billet in Canaan.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: " yet only two kings seem to have got around to seeing this was done: Josiah and Josiah and Jehoshaphat. "

Do you expect me to trust a man who can't count?

The Jews had adopted pagan rules in the absence of the laws of Moses. Obviously, that wasn't working out for them.....merely having a belief in Moses. None went to the temple. That's why it fell to disrepair - no contributions to keep it up.

One could just sit at home and believe, thinking that offering prayers to the Creator was good enough. Seems clear the Jews didn't feel their home was in the House of the Lord. Would you fork over money to maintain someone else's house instead of your own??

If the laws were read every 7 years, the Jews must have had awesome memories, or not much else stored in their heads to remember.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Now that I think of it, I've never heard any laws read in a Christian church. Personally, I think it would be cool.

I mean, after listening to the local pastor for a couple of years, I suddenly find out about this law. During one sermon, he said "You can't be a member of the church if you don't believe in the Trinity". Not that I was planning on it but what if a person had been a member all those years and suddenly found that out? Christ would have to kick them out of the church and, consequently, the kingdom of God - no salvation for you!

Makes you wonder how many other laws they're keeping under wraps. I think they should be upfront about these. Not that it matters to me, since I belong to another religion, but it's a sure fire way to foster distrust. I'd like to see that barrier pushed out of the way.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Is there anything more to religion than laws? Do this, do that, don't even think of doing anything of that nature. So boring. And what makes it all the more terrible, there isn't anything to justify any of these laws.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Just some old bugger with a beard laying the law down.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You have two choices for your life. While growing up, you wander between them hither and thither, like skipping through a meadow, picking flowers. On reaching adulthood, there is no more meadow - you come to a fork in the road: one is fate, the other is destiny. You can only go down one of these roads:

1. Do whatever you want, set your own rules and play out your years on earth as if there's nothing but death at the end. Try everything the world has to offer, have fun as often as possible, any way you can milk it because you only have one life to live. Always look out for number one because no one else will. Play first, pay later.

2. Discover why you're here on earth, use every talent and skill you acquire to provide some service to mankind. Ask God what He wants you to do and obey Him because He knows what's better for you than you do yourself. Prepare your spirit to be sturdy enough to endure eternity, standing in the light. Pay now, play later.

Most people choose #1 because it's so easy, forbidden fruit tugs the curisoity, and most importantly, it offers instant gratification. Generally, people only choose #2 after they've thoroughly screwed up their life with #1. But once chosen, the satisfaction level is unprecedented.

Yes, everything in life has rules - if they're not your own, they're somebody else's or Gods.

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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Surely by now you must realise that I don't put much faith in the existence of God. So some old gent with a long beard telling me I have to do this and do that because God ordained it doesn't exactly pass muster with me.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: He's not a man, so why wouldn't you trust him?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Why would you think I'd trust something I don't think exists?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Because you can't trust things that do exist, apparently.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Did Sodom and Gomorrah get toasted, like it says in Genesis? Well, the answer seems to be yes, but possibly not in the manner the good book states:

The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been discovered southeast of the Dead Sea. The modern names are Bab edh-Dhra, thought to be Sodom, and Numeira, thought to be Gomorrah. Both places were destroyed at the same time by an enormous conflagration. The destruction debris was about three feet thick. What brought about this awful calamity? Startling discoveries in the cemetery at Bab edh-Dhra revealed the cause. Archaeologists found that buildings used to bury the dead were burned by a fire that started on the roof.

What would cause every structure in the cemetery to be destroyed in this way? The answer to the mystery is found in the Bible. “Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens” (Genesis 19:24). The only conceivable explanation for this unique discovery in the annals of archaeology is that burning debris fell on the buildings from the air. But how could such a thing happen?

There is ample evidence of subterranean deposits of a petroleum-based substance called bitumen, similar to asphalt, in the region south of the Dead Sea. Such material normally contains a high percentage of sulfur. It has been postulated by geologist Frederick Clapp that pressure from an earthquake could have caused the bitumen deposits to be forced out of the earth through a fault line. As it gushed out of the earth it could have been ignited by a spark or surface fire. It would then fall to Earth as a burning, fiery mass.

It was only after Clapp formulated this theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were found. It turns out that the sites are located exactly on a fault line along the eastern side of a plain south of the Dead Sea, so Clapp's theory is entirely plausible. There is some evidence for this scenario from the Bible itself. Abraham viewed the destruction from a vantage point west of the Dead Sea. The Bible records what Abraham saw: “He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace” (Genesis 19:28). Dense smoke suggests smoke from a petroleum-based fire. Smoke rising like smoke from a furnace indicates a forced draft, such as would be expected from subterranean deposits being forced out of the ground under pressure.

[ http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a007.html ]

Who needs God when science and archaeology can provide the answers.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Because when Abraham and Lot split up, Lot's group wanted to go north; Abraham told Lot not to go there - the area of Sodom & Gomorrah wasn't a good place to set up camp- there would be problems. Lot, however, was insistent and went anyway.

That region had a seriously bad reputation long before the Angels visited. Science wasn't there to document all that stuff. How do you know they weren't doing something stupid like mining holes in the ground, causing their own earthquakes? They could have been using that stuff for pitch on their boats and what have you.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Really? You must have a copy of the unexpurgated Bible. My sad old copy doesn't seem to have the bit about Abraham telling Lot not to go to the cities of the plain. Nor does it say they were digging holes. It does suggest the area was fertile though, and by all accounts that's been confirmed. It seems the high salt content has preserved the remnents of an ancient forest which can be seen on the sea bottom in certain shallow areas.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Later on, in Greek and Roman times, they most certainly did collect pitch from the area.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I think the forests laying at the bottom of the Dead Sea probably came and went before man was, just like the tropical forests in the Arctic.

Well, they did have very deep copper mines, over to the east side of the sea. Lots of smoke went up from there because they were smelting the copper down. It's a dead zone now. They probably screwed up the water table, doing that.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Genesis 13 - Abraham's herdsmen and Lots Herdsmen were scrapping, getting the locals involved too. Everybody was infighting. Thus, Abraham and Lot separated to keep the peace. Lot went East, choosing the plain of Jordon because it looked so pretty from a distance - that's on the East side of the Dead Sea. Abraham stayed in the land of Canaan.

Moving on to Gen: 14, the place where Lot went was at constant war and Lot got captured, having all his goods taken from him. A messenger got word to Abraham of his plight so Abraham took a band of warriors into battle and rescued him, smiting Lots captors and brought him home.

Problem was, the king of Sodom only wanted Lots people, not his stuff. (slavery for the copper mines?) Long story short, Lot agreed to go back to Sodom. Frig....... after all of Abraham did for him, risking his own and others lives! Must have been a grave disappointment!

Of course, the story doesn't end there - God is plotting vengeance, you see.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It seems that the earthquake that did for Sodom and Co happened around 2,200 BC, or thereabouts. That means it might have happened before the supposed time of Abraham and Lot. On the other hand, the punch-up between the various kings seems, from the details, to be much later. Instead of a fertile plain, we hear of "slimepits," in other words bitumen pits. And, of course, we hear of Abraham giving pursuit all the way to Dan. The trouble with this is that the name of the town was originally Laish and only got the name Dan when it was attacked by the Israelites, as related in Judges18, long after the time of Abraham.

The upshot of all this is that the Biblical tale involving Abraham, Lot, and Sodom, seems to be composed of two seperate narratives from widely different times.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: That's not surprising since the stories were sung, not written. Small adaptions would have been made, else the hearers wouldn't have known what they were singing about.

I don't think they could be as picky about incidentals as we are because songs were built on poem and rhyme (tempo), not historical detail. I wonder what they sounded like. I'll know when I get to the next world.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Sung? Did they use castrati by any chance?
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