When religion strangles the life out of people, they will find ways around it (Page 4)

davesdatahut: The gibberish machine churns onward!
Having ignored requests for evidence of blacks fighting for the Confederacy, Zanjan's misfiring synapses turn to cigarettes, booze and pot.
And your point is?

Zanjan: You ignored all my questions to you in two separate topics......now you think I owe you a favour??

My point is:
When the government strangles the life out of people, they will find ways around it too.

There are those who don't want to follow any laws but it's not PC to admit that outright. So, they pretend while hiding their iniquities behind closed doors.

Those who've left religion did so because they got caught. In religious law, there's no room for error - that is, there's only one standard; it's easy to follow the trail of crumbs to the source and confront the negligent. Can't leave the government though; ergo, one uses the law to escape the law. Just grab a loophole and jump through it.

In Canada, there's been a government scandal with most of the Senators stealing money from the public purse. An inquiry was set up to find all the thieves, which they did. Some Senators said "Oh, I'll just give the money back - they did and kept their jobs. However, it cost the public purse 26 million dollars to locate 1 million dollars of missing money, not to mention court costs for prosecution against those who didn't have the money to pay back - those lost their jobs. Double standard, you see.

Now they're back to business as usual; knowing the public can't afford another inquiry for 20 years, they've got a lot of time to wash, rinse, repeat. Religion doesn't put up with that crap.

Zanjan: Don't misunderstand - I'm not discounting the wrongs in religion, just saying they deal better with it.

For example, yesterday, I got news from a distant relative in a formal letter to all, circulated to family members. After being with his girlfriend for 7 years, he told us she's the one - they're perfect for each other and greatly in love so he's announcing their engagement to be married. The wedding is in 3 weeks.

In that same announcement, he also mentioned she's pregnant. He hoped this news wouldn't unduly upset his religious family members and stated, emphatically, they were going to raise the child in a Christian home (despite neither being church goers) where the little one could learn about his Savoir, Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. He also said nobody else knows about this so please keep it quiet.

ghostgeek: I won't say a word.

Blackshoes: "Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the Biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and Biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy."


"There is a strange ring of feeling and emotion in these reactions [of scientists to evidence that the universe had a sudden beginning]. They come from the heart whereas you would expect the judgments to come from the brain. Why? I think part of the answer is that scientists cannot bear the thought of a natural phenomenon which cannot be explained, even with unlimited time and money. There is a kind of religion in science; it is the religion of a person who believes there is order and harmony in the Universe. Every event can be explained in a rational way as the product of some previous event; every effect must have its cause, there is no First Cause. … This religious faith of the scientist is violated by the discovery that the world had a beginning under conditions in which the known laws of physics are not valid, and as a product of forces or circumstances we cannot discover. When that happens, the scientist has lost control. If he really examined the implications, he would be traumatized."


"Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proved that the universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks: What cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter or energy into the universe? And science cannot answer these questions, because, according to the astronomers, in the first moments of its existence the Universe was compressed to an extraordinary degree, and consumed by the heat of a fire beyond human imagination. The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion."


"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."


Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation, but they are driven by the nature of their profession to seek explanations for the origin of life that lie within the boundaries of natural law.

— Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe, (1981), p. 19.

Zanjan: Some scientists aren't interested in theology, some are - both are working on the same projects, finding the same results; in the end, they usually come to a consensus about those results, regardless of their beliefs.

Unless some money is being passed under the table, it's very difficult to ignore empirical evidence (which is what theology uses as well). Science isn't all about theory because there are no theories for that which is observed beyond their intellectual reach.

Case in point: Science has proven all things created cannot become un-created, they can only change form, and that our universe is a closed system. They know a few things about black holes; they can tell where they are, how big they are, what they're doing to elements around them; and, consequently, that the *known* laws of physics can't work inside a black hole.

They also know that black holes shrink and disappear with everything inside them, as if vaporized. This, according to the *known* laws of physics and reality is impossible - yet that is what they've observed and what their machines have verified. Nothing testable whatsoever.

Then, what place has this science & scientists to defy what they've seen in their field?? Likewise, what place has any man, particularly a theologian to do the same?

Blackshoes: Zanjan I agree with Robert Jastrow opinion here .In other words The more Science learns the clearer all that was stated so long ago by Theologians was and is true

ghostgeek: Theologians have no proof that life was the result of an act of creation. All they have is an old story from a time before the word "Science" had even been coined.

Blackshoes: Lots of Evidence !! Proof is subject to the observers of such evidence ! Just look around ? The Earth n' Universe Scream Of God Glory


"A new study by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has recently documented evidence of a record-setting surge in water levels throughout the planet approximately 12,000 years ago, a discovery experts say is about to rewrite the geological history of the Earth as we know it. "

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/new-study-shows-evidence-of-worldwide-flood-12000-years-ago/

ghostgeek: There's plenty of waffle, but a paucity of evidence, for God and His works.

Blackshoes: That's your opinion Ghost ! Them that already know better . Don't need anyone else's !
All we accept or reject is always colored by our Presupposition, Education,or Experience .
You :as I've stated before ', cannot see beyond your ignorance's of what you cannot see nor believe !

ghostgeek: I find it difficult to believe in what I cannot perceive, and a good job too. Just imagine having to cross a bridge spanning a gorge. If you couldn't see it, would you be happy to step on it just because somebody long ago insisted that it was real? Or would you wait for some idiot to attempt a crossing and see if they plunged to their doom? Just asking.

Blackshoes: You await the last Day without knowing what will happen to you ?.
All the wile assuming that those that do know ! Haven't a clue!
What do you call someone who claims knowledge of what he also claims he doesn't know ?
Jesus came from Heaven and sits at the right hand of God as we speak ! If anyone would know Jesus would ? I would consider if someone had even a little wisdom ? He would have enough sense to believe the truth !
Therefore : Something is at work blinding those that do not believe ',

ghostgeek: So you'd gaily trip over the bridge that wasn't there, saying, "Yep, it's good so far," before going splatting on the rocks below?

By the way, if there is only one God, how come Jesus is suposed to be sitting at God's right hand, eating angle cake? Can you explain the concept of the Trinity? I bet you can't.

Blackshoes: The Bridge is there .Because you reject that Jesus Was Is and Always will be ! Because a blind man is unable too see the bridge .",he'll most likely fall off the edge ,into the abyss '. Only knowing after that fact that he was only a door away Always refusing to believe that others have already crossed over with God help

Voltaire famous anti-christian atheist: "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!" (His nurse said: "For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness."

ghostgeek: Blackshoes, be safe not sorry. Always carry a parachute with you.

ghostgeek: Now, as to the Trinity. God trisected sounds like a worm cut in three. Sounds quite painful, doesn't it?

Blackshoes: It's not my As- I'd be concern about Ghost . I already know the truth '.Do I know everything ? No ;but I know enough to know better

ghostgeek: When you know you don't know the truth, that's when you know the truth.

Blackshoes: I know all that I need to know .It's not my place to save anyone other than myself


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! …Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!”

ghostgeek: I might be inclined to listen if the poor sod had died, been buried, and had come back six months later to tell the world his woes. As it is, one can conjecture that the thought of dying had turned his brain to mush.

Blackshoes: Not likely

Luke

16:29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

16:30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

16:31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Zanjan: Ghost, when you find your way to that bridge, you WILL see it. Pointless if you didn't. No one can help you cross it, you’re totally on your own and God doesn't intervene.

However, there is someone waiting on the other side to greet you if you make it, and you’ll be able to see that person the moment you set *both* feet on the bridge. That should be incentive to continue – how do you think THEY got there?? The wienies wont approach, they'll turn aside and go back to where they came from, not being curious anymore.

Ghost: “By the way, if there is only one God, how come Jesus is suposed to be sitting at God's right hand, eating angle cake?”

Isn’t that just the duckiest question! I was patiently waiting for someone else to respond…sometimes it’s hard to hold your hand down when you know the answer and have a delightfully crude way of getting it across. My imaginary duct tape will now come off as I’ve managed to contain myself.

God has answered this one because the Jews asked Him. Everyone is a servant of God, whether he knows it or not. He said if He wishes to bring down His wrath on a disobedient people, He can rouse armies of men from elsewhere, who will mightily and righteously swoop down upon them and wipe their butts with them….shake with the right hand only, please.

ghostgeek: Zanjan, I wouldn't advise shaking my right hand before I'd washed it, after ... you know.

Zanjan: That's why I carry a purse sized hand sanitizer. We're not desert people. I once knew a non-Jewish lady who had to wipe down everything that could be touched in a restaurant before she touched it. Quite the ritual. I asked her if she ever got sick. She replied, "not from communicable diseases".