The Mystery of Jesus Christ. (Page 30)

Roqairol: I don't get it. Why would a historian of the ancient world not have a job if Jesus didn't exist? Jesus is just one historical figure, he is hardly the entire discipline.

Most historians today are not religious, and there is no reason why they would be dependent on groundwork laid generations, or even centuries, ago, (which never happened - historical Jesus studies are a modern phenomenon). Historiography is an intellectual discipline. It's findings and positions rest on evidence, rational inference, and a responsible historical method. No historian would be likely to get far today with an argument that something is so because someone said it in the eighteenth century.

There is one consideration I wonder about regarding this subject, and I admit I don't know what the experts say about it. You have a rash or writings about a person named Jesus extending from the 30s to the 90s of the first century. The writings themselves say that they were inspired by that person, whose sayings and doings were remembered.

If this rash of writings did not happen because a real person was remembered, then why did they happen? Something must have caused them. And if something other than the person the writings refer to caused them, what was it, why did it happen just when it did (or why did it inspire the writings just when it did) and what is the evidence for that?

ghostgeek: If there was no Jesus, New Testament studies would shrivel on the vine.

Roqairol: Why? There was no Achilles. Homeric studies don't wither on the vine.

ghostgeek: What would there be to study?

Roqairol: The community that produced the writings, the influences on the writings, how the writings are to be understood in context, how analogues to them clarify what they are, why they were written at all, how a myth came to be taken for reality. There's no reason to ignore ancient literary compositions because they attach the greatest importance to a fictional figure, especially when they went on to become as influential as anything ever written anywhere.

ghostgeek: Zechariah 11:12-13 New International Version (NIV)

12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

Matthew 26:15 New International Version (NIV)

15 and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.

Matthew 27:5 New International Version (NIV)

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

ghostgeek: How many books have you on the subject of Jesus Christ? I've got so many of them I haven't a clue where to put them.

Roqairol: I don't think I have any. What were the Biblical quotes for?

ghostgeek: Just showing where the idea of Judas' thirty pieces of silver could have come from. Notice how in both Zechariah and Matthew the money gets thrown into the temple.

chronology: Ghost, Socretes was a fictional character invented by Plato. Americans have a high regard for Classical Greek culture, but if Jesus was ever found to be another Socretes then Christianity would be as good as dead in a decade or so. Plato had worthwhile sentiments, but he was no Gospel writer.

The fact Jesus is believed by so many Americans to be a living breathing fact somewhere makes a bunch of difference.

Zanjan: Socrates was a real person; that's been verified.

Zanjan: Ghost: “Have you been watching Spartacus again, Zanjan?”

Hey, I didn’t know there was going to be that much nudity and gratuitous sex in it, I swear! Got the series on recommendation. If you closed your eyes during certain parts, it was really good.

By the way, did you notice how easily one can fake being knowledgeable?

Zanjan: Roqairol, re: Schweitzer quote…..gee, I hadn’t heard of that one before. Thrown under the wheel, crushed by……….mangled body hanging off it in bits…….ugh….a gory remnant of inhuman history to live by. Thanks, I needed that. I guess when the Apostles did the same thing, that couldn’t compare. Entirely too much is made of death.

Nevertheless, one can fake a personality, not genius and its reverberations.

Zanjan: Ghost: “the authors of the gospels failed to name themselves”

I guess they didn’t want to draw attention to themselves – obviously, they weren’t in it for the money. Everyone knows there’s more money in the vices.

“The criterion of embarrassment says that if a section would be embarrassing for the author, it is more likely authentic.”

What, like the creation stories? If authentic, does that mean what’s said is always true? People are still arguing over that and find no embarrassment in their belief that all creatures, including man, instantly appeared out of nothing, as if beamed down by Mr. Scott.

“There is one reason I can think of why scholars might claim Jesus Christ was a real man. Without Him their academic discipline wouldn't exist and they'd be looking for a job.”

Good one. I support the idea that everybody, then and since, has been far too stupid to hold a candle to this Personage (except for other Prophets of God).

“Notice how in both Zechariah and Matthew the money gets thrown into the temple.”

Another good one. The correlation is stunning…….from a close relative of Jesus, probably a fictional Jewish priest, along with the fake Matthew?

Could it be a prophecy? Or perhaps we’re just missing the evidence for an ancient tradition of taking a third of the whole (the whole is 9), like in Revelations. Actually, even way back further. Three was a popular number for a reason.

Zanjan: Folks, going back some 30 posts to the previous page, did you see what Ghost did? Remember the crumb I threw to him? You know, about painting Jesus. When he found out what it was, he immediately changed the subject. Pretty much confirms he was afraid. Yep, a scaredy pants.

Speaking of pants………..how did people know that Paul had knobby knees and crooked legs? Did he dress like a Roman with a short tunic, like the soldiers? Seems awkward to me. Then I wondered how Jesus dressed so I looked it up…………found a third century depiction of Him in the Roman catacombs.

Sweet Jesus, please tell me you won’t meet me in the next world clipped, clean-shaven and wearing a short skirt…….I’d be sooooo disappointed .I…..just couldn’t bear it! Seriously.

chronology: Zan, Socretes is more or less accepted now as an invention of Plato.

Zanjan: If that's the case, then Plato, his student, is also an invention. Plato was a politician, far from the caliber and wisdom of Socrates. Has it ever occurred to you that it's impossible for a writer to invent a character who's smarter and wiser than themselves? You can't produce that which isn't in you.

How many people out of the 7 Billion on earth have accepted your premise?

chronology: Well Zan you seem to despise politicians, anyway Christopher Hitchens a classical schola believed Jesus was real but Socretes an invention of Plato.

ghostgeek: It doesn't matter if Socretes lived or not. Nothing in the world of would be changed but a few attributions. If there was no Jesus Christ, though, bang goes both Christianity and Islam, our system of keeping track of time, and, most importantly, the Christmas shopping mania.

ghostgeek: Now tell me folks, what does this sound like:

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Seems to me it's one of those Ten Commandments that the old Jews put so much faith in. Any faithful Jew following this commandment wouldn't consider having his likeness made, something that would surely apply to Jesus Christ if He ever lived. Scaredy Pants out.

chronology: Ghost, unfortunately some folks don't use common sense with these matters. I have heard of some people who have destroyed every photograph they have saying they are banned by the ten commandments about images.

Zanjan: Ghost: "If there was no Jesus Christ, though, bang goes both Christianity and Islam"

That would only be true for Christianity. Islam is a stand alone religion. Muhammad taught a Pagan society, remember? Some of them wanted Him to address a few questions about other religious beliefs they'd heard about - no exposure to another religion, no questions necessary.

Zanjan: Ghost: "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

Seems to me, the translation is "graven image" of the divine. I can certainly paint a picture of something to you in words or actions but how do you use a brush to paint spiritual qualities and divine powers? How would you mold them out of clay or carve them into stone?

Obviously, God wasn't forbidding men to do the impossible. So, what was possible for the ancients 3.5 thousand years ago? Could they see the face of God and use Him as a model for their next bust? They'd already admitted if they could do that, they'd die. Then what exactly were they DOING that God told them not to do?

Oh, could it be pretending something? Maybe praising/worshipping the wrong thing, like a metal calf or marble statue? How about sculpting a lie or deception about God? Maybe they weren't that smart, eh.

Chron, yeah, the Hutterites here wriggled out of the law of photo ID on their drivers license. That's pretty sneaky, and the judge was definitely ignorant, considering there are photos of smiling Hutterites all over the place.

If he wanted to side with them on respecting religious beliefs, he should have cited the religious law of respecting the law of the land, and ruled they be micro chipped, together with a DNA sample.

Laws with a double standard are evil.

Zanjan: We should note that one will not find this Commandment repeated in any other religious scripture. Seems to me, whatever believers were doing back then, they stopped doing; thus, that particular thing became a non-issue.

This is not to say other similar issues didn't crop up, like the Jesus coins. That's just really bad taste. Good thing it didn't last long.

Zanjan: Overall, I think most would be surprised to learn how much Islam influenced Christians in the Middle East; it's impact raised a lot of questions - the further north and west one went, the more splits there were in the Church. Muslim ideas took a lot longer to catch on though.

Two generations ago, no one was allowed to make a representation of Christ on film - only a long shadow or glowing light to indicate the source. Not long after that, they could add the booming Voice of the Lord in the background.....then they could show a glowing hand...........eventually, they could show the back of an actor, and finally, all bets were off on what was acceptable. They could even show a pregnant woman on the screen! Strange that Islam's gradual impact on Christianity has receded.

Meanwhile, something else has had an impact on Christianity - Christians don't act nearly as badly as they used to when I was young; and, some of them have adopted new ideas, better tolerance, and practices that are actually good. Considering the history, we know these are all borrowed....OR...we could say they're tapping into a new spiritual impulse.