The Mystery of Jesus Christ. (Page 15)

Zanjan: No, a lottery winner of any age is an ordinary given. A miracle would be if a homeless person won it. A bigger miracle would be if that homeless person lived in Nunavut.

So, in religious terms, lets put things into perspective. It was pretty nifty that Christ walked on water but *Salvation* is the biggest miracle of all, no question about it. The cup overflows but, unlike the lottery win, this cup never runs dry. If there is any question to be had, it's the size of the cup.

Zanjan: When Christ returns, going by what Revelations says, we see a certain number of people, who are God's servants, are sealed (144,000) in their foreheads. A seal is the sign of authority.

These people are selected from each of the named 12 tribes of Israel. We don't know the size of the population because some of the tribes have been lost. Therefore, we couldn't say what percentage of the Jewish population that is because so many Jews were lost too.

Seems to me, these tribes would have to be around to make the count feasible, which makes Christ's return, stated as above, an event which happened very long ago. If these tribes existed at the time, recognition would be easily facilitated; one could demonstrate how that prophecy was fulfilled.

Now, if we suppose the reference is to OUR time, God would have to locate all of the people from those tribes, which I'm sure would be a big surprise to those who God deems them to belong to. That would certainly be a miracle; today, recognition of that would require genetic verification of each person, framed against a very well archived family tree.

However, there are approximately 13.5 million Jews world wide today so, selecting out 144,000 Jewish people, regardless of tribal lineage, is easily doable. BUT, something is missing.

To make this work according to spec, we have to accept that blood lineage is not the same thing as religious belief. The requirement is genetic lineage only. That means, some individuals descended from those tribes would actually have to be Christians or some other religion - in that case, they would be the first fruits of Christianity and/or of another religion, like Islam.

Zanjan: If every requirement is to be fulfilled, perhaps we should look at a third return of Christ, which works for me (applied to the 3 Days He mentioned).

Let's say that's in our time. We need to be looking at the numbers again, relative to current world population. Doing the math, that would be .002% of the worlds population which are sealed. What happens to the remaining 99.998% of people in the world?

Following Revelations 7, we see that after this sealing event occurs, there are multitudes from all walks of life who are saved, worshiping God; they're continually serving the One Who sits on the throne (busy people), albeit these saved people aren't the authorities on God's Faith.

Today, nobody agrees on who is saved and who isn't. Perhaps we should stay away from names and use some other crucible. I think, due to critical numbers mentioned in the Book, there must exist some kind of dynamic that presents the same proportional figure on every scale, locally, nationally, and globally.

Judging by current conduct in society, together with religious people, my educated guess is that .1% of people on earth today are actually saved - if I'm wrong, then I erred with a generous figure. Looking at the odds, that's a miracle.

ghostgeek: Nobody is saved. Death claims everyone.

ghostgeek: Christ, if He ever existed, was just a bloke. He ain't ever going to return.

ghostgeek: And miracles are the lies that snare the faithful.

Zanjan: Geeze, all that typing for nothing!

ghostgeek: Life's a bitch.

Zanjan: This is the thanks that Christ gets for His efforts!

Zanjan: Well, Ghost, you're right about one thing - since you're not a believer, you'll be condemned to extinction. No so for those of us who believe. Which is the better deal?

shadowline: Oh dear, "condemned to extinction". And Jesus has such a reputation for humaneness. I suppose from the Baha'i point of view you are "condemned to extinction" if you don't believe in Abraham, Mohammed, and Baha'u'llah too. That's a lot of believing. It's not all that surprising that only a tiny fraction of the human race is up to it.

ghostgeek: I do on occasion believe in the power of reason to knock the struts from under assorted religious crap. That, surely, should earn me a place in any god's heaven.

Zanjan: " And Jesus has such a reputation for humaneness"

Yes, especially when conveniently ignoring that He said "You shall ALL perish!" unless you believe. He wasn't being mean, just telling the truth - is truth humane? Is ignorance humane?

BTW, it wasn't Jesus who used the words "condemned to extinction", albeit, He said the same thing and repeated it.

"That's a lot of believing"

Not as hard as trying to remember phone numbers.

Zanjan: Ghost, normally your imaginative interpretation about 'knocking the struts" out from under religious crap wouldn't create passing interest to man or God.

However, God hears everything so when you declare He doesn't exist, you're giving Him a reason to NOT remember you. Without His blessing, your existence is non-existence, compared to every other soul.

What you need to learn is what heaven actually is and how to get there. It's like math - nobody knows how to do it until until they're taught......even then, some don't learn.

ghostgeek: Maybe what I need is for somebody to show me that this God you, and others like you, keep going on about actually exists. Yes, that would be a good start, some actual proof.

Zanjan: There you go again, trying to make God and heaven into something you wish - doesn't work. Maybe you could wish away the next galaxy too; just pretend the planets we haven't visited yet are drawings, an artist's speculation.

ghostgeek: All I wish for is that people would spend a little more time trying to show that their beliefs had some factual basis, and considerably less telling the rest of us what we should be doing.

Zanjan: Ooooh.........hit a button, did I? It's all about what you should be doing - you know, like etiquette, language, and other kinds of social interaction.

We'll, it's mighty odd that people admit it's ok to follow government laws, regardless of which government legislates them; but, spiritual laws? Ya gotta be kidding! That's just too much to ask a feller. Just ONE ruler doesn't sit well with a person, and that we're being asked to be nice and play fair too without expectation of reward - seriously, what kind of person would DO that???

Idk, Ghost, sounds like you're living in your own personal hell.

Zanjan: Maybe some of us read the scriptures wrong. See, if it's the HELLIONS that are doomed to extinction, that means HELL has an expiry date. Things might be be getting better for ya after all, Ghost. The only question is 'when'. Hmmmm........I recall a line in the Bible where someone actually asked just that......

shadowline: I confess it's a long time since I memorized the Gospels. Leaving aside the question of whether they can be regarded as actual transcriptions of what Jesus said in every instance, I'd be interested in being reminded of where he said " 'You shall ALL perish!' unless you believe".

Zanjan: Luke 13: 3-5 .......it's also in the OT Deut: 8:19

The Quran and the Bayan have same thing. Of course, this involves repenting, not just lip service. Apparently, God really means it.

shadowline: Luke 13:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

This passage seems to refer to repenting, not to believing. I'm not aware of any passage that promises annihilation for not believing. But, as I say, I'm not a scholar of the subject. I'm asking for enlightenment.

Zanjan: The ancient Jews, for the most part, *practiced* belief - they didn't repent because they didn't actually believe. You can't have one without the other.

Mark 7: 17-23

""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'"

Mark 16:16

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

I'm sure there's more but this will do.

shadowline: Yes, those are interesting. Once again, however, neither of them says that anyone who does not believe will "perish" or be "condemned to extinction".

"Condemned", without the "to extinction", may mean nothing more than "considered to be unrighteous".

What a strange thing you are determined to prove Jesus stood for. How it can be taken as consequent on believing in him I don't think I see. It looks a good deal more like "condemning" him to me.

Zanjan: I'm not determined to prove anything other than that God is not a man.

The texts speak different things to different people. Unless you've met Jesus in person and spent a lot of time with Him, how would you be able to grasp and assess the nature of His character? Even then, you wouldn't be able to fully do that. If we want to back something up, a little factual history is all that's necessary.

Some human tribes and races were condemned to extinction and very ancient religions along with them. It's not that we don't know they once existed, we have their "dry bones" as proof. Paternalistic societies are condemned to extinction, along with the old world order of things and mentalities. Any living creature that's in the wrong place and out of its own time will disappear from memory.

If neither man or God remembers you, that's extinction. If we establish a just society, then unjust leaders become extinct - there will be no Draculas in paradise. This isn't rocket science.