Is There Something Wrong with the Concept of God? (Page 10)

orkanen
orkanen: Do you have something particular in mind?
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TrueWord
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orkanen
orkanen: You have some guy in the video who asserts a god, then switches from religion to religion, ending at Islam, what's so special about that? He's still asserting the same god, and nothing will make him consider whether or not gods exist, because he's already made up his mind. or in short, he's closed minded.

Here's someone who decided to be honest with himself, and thus accepting that no proof of any gods exist, as well as realizing all religious books are flawed. Including your Qur'an.


If you dare, you can seek out the manuscripts found in the great mosque of Sana'a. It shows that the Qur'an is altered, despite the many claims of an unaltered copy in gold up in Heaven.

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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Orkanen, people don't seem to like me saying it but I find a number of passages in Exodus very descriptive of an active volcano. Add in that one can offer convincing explanations of many of the miracles and the plagues and I am compelled to think that somebody, sometime, actually witnessed these events. Am I saying that this is sufficient cause to believe the Exodus narrative; no. Some things are obviously wrong in it. For example, in Exodus 13:17 we hear that led the Israelites off into the wilderness:

"And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt."

The thing is, the Philistines hadn't arrived in Canaan when the Israelites went on their walk. This is easily proved. The pharaoh Merneptah erected a black granite pillar, supposedly in 1209 BC, to commemorate some military victories. On it is the name Israel, the first time anybody mentions it. As for the Philistines, they arrived later on the scene, maybe around 1180 BC during the reign of the later pharaoh, Ramases III. They came as part of a confederation called the "Sea Peoples". Ramases claimed to have repulsed the invading Sea peoples and driven them back into Canaan, where the Philistines settled on the coast. The point here is that the Israelites were already in Canaan before the Philistines got there. When the Israelites went marching out of Egypt there would have been no reason for God to have them avoid the "way of the land of the Philistines". The Philistines weren't there.

So did God get it wrong? It seems unlikely. I can think of only one reason for the contradiction here. Somebody wrote the Book of Exodus long after the purported events, using source material that has now been lost. Because they were using information from long before their era, they interpreted it with reference to their own time and place. They clearly knew of the existence of the Philistines so they assumed that they'd also existed at the time of the exodus. They were wrong. This would never have happened if Exodus was contemporaneous with the events described. Exodus is not an eyewitness account, as some people claim. It is a story concocted much later.
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orkanen
orkanen: I partially agree with you on Exodus. My take however is that it took place earlier than that.

http://lunaticoutpost.com/showthread.php?tid=355325
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I have wondered what happened to all those who followed the Aten after Akhenaten disappeared from the scene. Did they all go back to worshipping the old Egyptian gods or did some of them move out of Egypt, taking their beliefs with them.
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orkanen
orkanen: I also wonder how slaves held cattle, unless the Exodus story includes elements from the relocation of families from Judea to Mesopotamia. I accept the hypothesis on the volcano being a representation of the god to be viable.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: A new translation of a 40-line inscription on a 3,500-year-old stone block from Egypt called the Tempest Stela describes rain, darkness and the ‘sky being in storm without cessation, louder than the cries of the masses.’ The Tempest Stela dates back to the reign of the pharaoh Ahmose, the first pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty. Some scholars believe the unusual weather patterns described on the Tempest Stela were the result of a massive volcano explosion at Thera. Problems with the dating of the Thera eruption and the reign of Ahmose mean the connection cannot be made with certainty but it could just be the evidence needed to link the plagues in Exodus with Thera.



(1) “[Long live (?) the Horus “Great of Manifestations”, He of the] Two Ladies “Pleasing of Birth”, the golden Horus “Who binds the Two Lands”, King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Neb-pehty-Ra, son of Ra, Ahmose, living forever. “Now then, His Majesty came [...] (2) since(?) Ra himself had appointed him to be king of Upper Egypt”. “Now, His Majesty dwelt in the town of Sedjefa-tawy (“Provisioner of the Two Lands”) (3) [in the district just to] the south of Dendera. Now then, A[mon-Ra, Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands,] was in Heliopolis of Upper Egypt (= Thebes)”. “It was His Majesty who went south (“upstream”) in order to [give to him bread, beer and everything good and] pure. (4) Now after the offering, [...] (4) their(?) [...]. Then attention as given in [...] this [dis]trict. Now then, the cult image [of this god ...] (5) [...] as his body was installed in (lit. “united with”) this temple while his limbs were in joy. [...]”. “[... Now then], this great god desired [...] His Majesty [...] while the gods complained of their discontent. [Then] the gods [caused] that the sky come in a tempest of r[ain], with [dark]ness in the condition of the West, and the sky being in storm without [cessation, louder than] the cries of the masses, (8) more powerful [than ...], [while the rain howled] on the mountains louder than the sound of the underground source of the Nile that is in Elephantine”. “Then every house, every quarter that they (scil. the storm and rain) reached [... their corpses(?)] floating on the water like skiffs of papyrus outside the palace audience chamber for a period up to [...] days [...] while no torch could be lit in the Two Lands”. “Then His Majesty said: ‘How much greater this is than the wrath of the great god, [than] the plans of the gods!’ His Majesty then descended to his boat, (11) with his council following him, while the crowds [on] the east and west had hidden faces, having no clothing on them after the manifestation of the wrath of (12) the god. His Majesty then reached the interior of Thebes, with gold confronting gold of this cult image, so that he received what he desired”. “Then His Majesty (13) began to reestablish the Two Lands, to give guidance (or “a conduit”) for the flooded territories. He did not f[ail] in providing them with silver, with gold, with copper, (14) with oil and cloth comprising every bolt that could be desired. His Majesty then made himself comfortable (= seated himself) within the palace (life! prosperity! health!). Then His Majesty was informed (15) that the mortuary concessions had been entered: the tomb chambers collapsed, the funerary mansions undermined, and the pyramids fallen – what had been made non-(16)existent (lit. “what had not been made”). Then His Majesty commanded to restore the temples that had fallen into ruin in this entire land: to refurbish the monuments of the gods, to erect (17) their enclosure walls, to provide the sacred objects in the noble chamber, to mask the secret places, to introduce into their shrines the cult images which were (18) cast to the ground, to set up the braziers, to establish their bread offerings, to double the income of the personnel, to put the land into its former state. Then it was done in accordance with all that His Majesty had commanded”.
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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orkanen
orkanen: That clip was a rather annoying listening experience.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: A little mechanical in presentation agreed but it does have the benefit of being brief.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It was pharaoh Ahmose who finally drove out the hated Hyksos, the mixed Semitic-Asiatics who had ruled northern Egypt for about one hundred years. If there was ever one event in Egyptian history that accords with the biblical Exodus, this surely must be it. To have it occur in the reign of the pharaoh who erected the Tempest Stela cannot help but make one wonder if here we have the origin of the plagues and exodus story of the Bible.
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orkanen
orkanen: That could of course be one of many sources to the Exodus story. There were so many different myths out there at the time. People are generally superstitious, particularly when they don't understand the laws of nature.
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quarks
quarks:
what if god or gods do not care what people do? or say these gods just like watching us like we watch fishies in tanks?
then maybe free will is fine with them ( : it does require these gods or god to not be all knowing or even the watching would be boring.
story of flood is in Dansk legend but not exact as in Bible
Moses seems like a funny man wondering about the desert
wonder if he took the Egyptians cats when he left this would have upset them very much but would be good trick for payback
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I don't think Moses was a cat lover but he sure turned into one of the world's great serial killers. As you turn the pages of the Bible the bodies keep on mounting. Isn't it strange then that the world holds this man in high esteem but reviles tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin. It must have something to do with him being on the winning side.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I do find it passing strange that believing folk look askance at any suggestion that events recorded in the Bible may have down-to-earth explanations. Tell them that the Mount of God was a volcano in Saudi Arabia and they become incandescent with invective. "Fool," they cry, "what stupidity." Yet who is the more foolish? The one who points out that a volcano could have caused the plagues of Egypt, using events from the present day as a guide, or the one who substitutes for natural phenomena a mystical being of unproven existence.
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quarks
quarks:
possibly God did events using nature as device for delivering His will.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: That's the problem with God. Endless possibles but no certainties.
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Tomacco
Tomacco: Maybe those tsunamis were his will, or all the earthquakes..how dare those poor impoverished people piss off his almightiness
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quarks
quarks:
Possibilities is better than certanties..
“Fate is like a strange, unpopular restaurant filled with odd little waiters who bring you things you never asked for and don't always like.”
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Yes, that sounds like God, giving you things you don't want at a price you can't afford.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ghost: “It does make one wonder if another Exodus miracle has its basis in a natural phenomenon rather than divine intervention.”

Naturally, humans are very curious and want to know how a thing happened; enter science. Most things can be explained through nearly any kind of science. You ask why does it have to be divine? It doesn’t, if that’s what you find entertaining. However, the deeper intellect says that’s not enough – it wants to know *why* it happened.

With one eye, you see a major event and want to know what caused it; yet with two eyes, you see a confluence of events and want to know why those appeared together.

There’s no such thing as divine intervention. Intervention implies that the Hand of God is powerless at times. You wouldn't be able to breathe if His power was interrupted. The divine is always with us; some will be enabled to obtain inspiration at any moment, anywhere on earth.

What you’re seeing is divine timing. There’s message and a lesson in it. Some people get it.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Volcanoes happen everywhere on the planet, Ghost - some do trigger an exodus if people have enough warning to get away but none leave for religious reasons. If anything, some will stay out of powerful attachment or attraction. Remember Mt. St. Helens?

It would be hard to explain why 600,000 people left because of volcanic activity while all the rest of Egypt remained behind.

Slaves - generally, these were acquired as booty from captured territory. The Israelites were not apprehended, they came to Egypt willingly and took up residence, becoming part of the workforce. Archeologists have found they even had their own settlements and towns.

The Israelites as slaves - who or what was their master? Could it not be tradition or materialism, the enticement of position or threat from oppressive influence? What makes you think some of the Israelites weren't just as corrupt as the Egyptians? After the exodus, the Israelites seriously considered that their life was better off in Egypt than following Moses. Really? Freedom wasn't as good as slavery???

As an aside, no one has mentioned the confluence of civil history. Do we have all the reasons why Moses didn’t enter the promised land? Well, Pharaoh, in his less than smart campaign, was simultaneously battling the Hittites there – they met in the middle of the land of Canaan……….the Egyptians occupying the south with the Hittites occupying the north. Both sides suffered great losses in that war and the rivers ran with blood. Essentially, it was a checkmate. Seeing the futility of pursuit, Egypt made a peace pact with the Hittites so the soldiers could go home. This battle is well recorded by the Egyptians.

Divine timing says the Jews would wait off side until the superpowers had come to terms, yes?

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them.…”

(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Yes Zanjan, I do feel that a lot of people want to know why things happen. Natural human curiosity I guess. That doesn't mean they want to know the truth, not if it conflicts with their desires. Personally, I've never been much of a Bible reader but recently I took a peek at Exodus, and what a change it's made. Where before I was happy to believe that Moses and the Exodus were a Jewish fable, now I'm inclined to believe it's based on actual fact. That enlightenment has come at a cost though. As you've noticed, I see a volcano at the centre of things. Exodus describes it so well it's not hard to imagine it booming and shaking. Not Thera though, on the island of Santorini, some 200 km southeast of Greece, which is many people's choice. No, I think we need look a lot closer to Egypt, somewhere where there is plenty of evidence of volcanic activity. That place is Midian of old, modern day north western Saudi Arabia. A volcano going off there, with a wind from the east, could have brought an ash cloud to Egypt and precipitated the Ten Plagues. See, all the pieces fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. All a person needs is an open mind and the old words shout out VOLCANO!

Ah, you say, but what about the timing? Why should an eruption occur just as the Jews are yearning for freedom? Is that not a sign of God working His mojo? Maybe, but maybe not. Before we make a judgement we have to consider the central character in this narrative. No, not God, Moses. Everything hinges around Moses, yet we know virtually nothing about him, not even if he ever told the truth. Did he ever commune with God? We only have his word that he did. He could have been a fantasist, a liar, a fraud; we just don't know. What seems to be the case is that Moses witnessed some sort of volcanic activity in Midian, went to Egypt and convinced some people there that he had talked to God. On that basis he became their leader and took them back to that big old volcano in Midian. Well, once there, I'm sure it wasn't too hard for him to convince the superstitious Israelites that they really were in the presence of God. The rest, as is often said, is history.

Moses, like Muhammad, may have believed that he was on a mission from God. That's all it takes to change history. A man with a bee in his bonnet. It's not evidence for God, just an indication of what a single minded person can achieve when sufficiently driven. As for the Israelites, well, they may have been the first group of people he came across that proved susceptible to his message.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I'm not opposing the idea that volcanic activity caused the plagues. In fact, there was one good answer for why the first born of the Egyptians died - poisonus gas leaked from the earth and it was slightly heavier than air. The eldest of the Egyptian males slept on the lower bunks while the youngers slept above them. The gas moved along the ground.

However, none of the Jews were affected - Moses told them what preventative measures to take. Inspiration from God means one can see in advance. The lambs blood on the doorways - well, that's a sign that believers lived there and no death or grief entered their homes. What a stunning co-incidence, eh?

Of course, it could just be a metaphor and all the unbeliever's first-borns spiritually died, which is also perfectly acceptable.

You say, " just an indication of what a single minded person can achieve when sufficiently driven.

Do you not think Pharoah was driven? How about Alexander the Great? Tamerlane? This was a world in time where the prime rule was 'Conquer or be conquered'. If you conquer a people, how have you set them free?

Well, who sings those ancient leaders praises now? How many people follow them? Where's their book to be read every day? Nations rise and fall and leave nothing behind except rubble. That's one aspect of history.

The other is the permanent change in humankind about the time that old religions become dry bones.

Suddenly, a magnetic, spiritual breeze blows around the earth and humans everywhere are inspired by it; it comes in dark times when hearts are cold and greedy and the innocent are held in the talons of the corrupt. It's a cycle of seasons. The heedless face impending disaster. Afterwards, there's a swell to a slightly more refined state of being and civilization, including technology, an mankind takes a step forward.

Follow history's patterns and see how it is that natural disasters have suddenly toppled powerful nations off their pinnacle of vanity. You will always find one who writes that they saw it coming - the wrath of God, which is the redemption for the lovers.



(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It's refreshing to find someone with something new to say Zanjan. Your idea about poisonus gas leaking from the earth is an explanation I haven't seen before. Mostly people rely on a double portion of mouldy grain being fed to the first born to account for the tenth plague. Really, the tenth plague is the tricky one, all explanations seeming a little hit or miss to me. I myself have dreamt up something a little different to account for it. It's probably all nonsense but it seems to me that people back then had a propensity to sacrifice the first born when trouble was lapping around their forelocks. I reckon having nine plagues messing up their world might have been their definition of trouble so maybe some of the Israelites' neighbours got busy with the sacrificial razor.
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