Is There Something Wrong with the Concept of God? (Page 8)

chay chayi: No such thing as "voices in the head", its real live true spirits of God

orkanen: Every psychiatrist will beg to differ. It's called schizophrenia, a commonly known mental condition.

Zanjan: The Mt. Sinai event - if one wants to interpret it literally, as a physical event, it would better describe an alien ship landing.

The volcano idea might be feasible if applied only to the escape from the Egyptians. The Sinai event came much later, after they'd already escaped. Moses led the people through the wilderness of Sin, figuratively and literally and, which is between Midean and Sinai. Seems the pillars of cloud and fire were no more as there is no mention of it during this time. The Jews defeated the Amalekites before setting up camp at the wadi with 12 wells. Then there was the rock of Horeb (split rock incident)......still no sign of a volcano but could well have been an earthquake.

If there had been a volcano, why wouldn't they have just used that word? Volcanoes were common enough to have a word for it then. My understanding is that Mt. Sinai was never a volcano. Just looks like a big fat rock to me that was burnt on top - it has no crater. However, the mountain did shake.

chay chayi: Egypt is literal, Israel is literal, Moses is literal, Noah and the flood is literal, all the 10 miracles and the splitting of the sea was literal, all the wars to invade Israel was literal, the creation is literal, Adam and Eve is literal

Everything in the Torah is literal

The physical world and universe is literal, and everything in the Torah about it is literal. and the spirit is one with the literal existence, they go both together at once

ghostgeek: It's not just me that sees the description of God in Exodus as an account of a erupting volcano.

chay chayi: Its a video made by someone like you, so ????

ghostgeek: Not made by me Chayiii and its arguments make sense.

chay chayi: Pure nonsense

ghostgeek: Plenty of past volcanic activity in Saudi Arabia. A good place to look for the Mount of God?

chay chayi: Nonsense as Hell, nothing to do with Mount Sinai, and Mount Sinai has no hole on its top, like a volcanic explosion

chay chayi: That first video is plain nonsense
It says that God sent a cloud, not that God is a cloud, its all what God made, not that that was God

And the burning bush was also a volcano ?? ha ??

And so the cloud at day, and the fire at night all the 40 years in the desert, was also volcanic ???

TheismIsUntenable: Ha!

This is an amusing thread. When you ask someone to define god at a sufficient level, as in by its properties, they can never do so. It is always this amorphous blob or consciousness that created the Universe, is super powerful, and knows everything.

How do you address such an idea, in favor or not?

Answer: You do not.

The believers are keen to shift the burden of proof.
The unbelievers are keen to be skeptics.

EDIT: So the answer to the question is "Yes"

Zanjan: So the Bible said "since then, there had not been **in Israel** a Prophet like Moses' - of course not, that was 3,300 years ago; for them, the last great Prophet (who spoke with God face to face- that is, directly) was Abraham, Who existed before the Children of Israel did. If they'd had a Prophet, it was one of the lesser ones.

The first video is wrong - he said Moses is held as a great Prophet in three religions - nope, it's FOUR religions. Come up to speed, man.

Yes, the Lord spoke to Moses out of the burning bush too, long before the exodus ( back on Mt. Horeb in Midea) before Moses returned to Egypt. . Notice wherever the Lord is there's a fire. The Zoroastrians had it too, 2,700 years ago.

This visual was pretty popular amongst ancient people; the icon of the eternal flame continues to be used even to this day. Mind you, most of our torches are battery/natural gas operated these days.

Earth quakes are common in Saudi Arabia (the ancient Midean area); however, there's only been 13 volcanic erruption in 4,500 years - those look like it. Check out the volcanic record. Any volcanic eruption at the time of Moses would have to be in the sea, which could be seen from Egypt - that would have created a Tzunami, a one-time event. Mt.Sinai is too far inland. The closest big thing would be the Minoan Eruption of Santorini, but that was supposedly 400 years before Moses. Wouldn't have caused a Tzunami in the red sea anyway.

Zanjan: Why are we talking about the God of ancient times instead of the God during modern times? By what can we say God does stuff today that proves a religion is true? Do we need volcanoes to do that?

chay chayi: There is no God of ancient and God of modern, only one God, so watch your words

chronology: ghost. How long are you going to cling to this 'coincidence' argument. Let's see; the Hebrew people arrive at body of water being chased by a despotic ruler. The water parts and they pass across the bed of the water safely, the despot drowns. Pillars of cloud by day and pillars of fire by night guide them on their way. A thunderous presence descends on the mountaintop. Some of the Hebrews offer a banned sacrifice to God and are swallowed whole in an earthquake.

You can argue 'all of these incidents have happened before, they can be explained'. Sure they have and can. But are you seriously saying such events happened exactly when they were needed by people like they did in the Bible.

Zanjan: Chay, God is one - you know I've said that many times, which leaves only one rendering of my words - that ancient perception of God is severely outdated.

chay chayi: I knew, that's why i said watch your "words", and it does not refer to God, it refers to the people that change

Zanjan: I choose my words according to my intent but I can't do anything about your interpretation of them or the Bible.

ghostgeek: Arab writers chronicled Volcanic eruptions in the Madina area in the year 1256 A.D. An earthquake, caused by basaltic magma welling up through cracks in the 40-kilometer thick crust of the Arabian Peninsula, was quickly followed by fiery volcanic eruptions that lasted nearly two months and spewed lava and ash from a massive fissure southeast of Madinah, throwing up six cones of cinders. The lava flowed for 23 kilometers and threatened to inundate the city itself. Western Saudi Arabia is in fact covered not only with sand, but also with vast fields of lava. In Arabic, these lava fields are known as harraat. Some dozen named harraat in Saudi Arabia together form one of Earth’s largest alkali basalt regions, covering some 180,000 square kilometers, an area greater than the state of Missouri. In other words, next door to the Sinai Peninsula is a large, volcanically active, region that borders the Red Sea. A region that is geologically under explored. It seems the perfect setting to me for the Israelites meeting with "God".

Zanjan: I'm sorry, Ghost, that eruption was a few thousand years too late. But it was proven that an earthquake split the rock of Horeb, which Moses struck. That real water did come out but eventually dried up.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Was a tough nut to crack but He did it and out flowed the spiritual waters of knowledge.

Remember Moses crossed the Reed Sea - that's why people were confused with exactly where Moses crossed; they figured it was the Red Sea, not a swampy area. They think they have it right but can we be sure? Would it make any difference if they crossed a shallow backwater area a few hundred miles elsewhere?

Seems to me, they could easily have trundled off through the area where the Suez canal is and across the Sinai down to the Medean area of Arabia. How do you think Moses got there in the first place, and by what route did he return to Egypt with His mission?

Spiritually, the waters were parted though.

ghostgeek: True enough Zanjan. Just using it to illustrate the fact that Saudi Arabia is geologically active. No reason why the same couldn't have been the case in Moses' time. By the way, why does everyone think that the Israelites were slaves? Just think about the Golden Calf. Made out of gold jewellery. The Israelites must have been damn wealthy slaves to have been carrying all that gold around with them. Suggests the Egyptians were real considerate slave masters. Makes you wonder why the Jews ever wanted to go wandering in the desert for forty years, doesn't it.

Zanjan: Maybe it was booty from conquering the Amelekites, who dwelled at the wells. I think the text infers it was melted down jewelry & other things - one wouldn't need much if it was hammered into gold leaf and wrapped over some base material. They could make copper and bronze - maybe it was a reference to the colour?

I don't think it was slavery the way we tend to see it. Folks always want to look a the bad first.

Remember how the Children of Israel got to Egypt in the first place - they were fleeing a famine so they brought stuff with them, and handed it down to their children. Joseph did mighty well for himself. They had their own homes and made a living like anyone else. There's evidence of Jewish only villages in the area.

Over time, the Jews didn't fare as well, living under oppressive, prejudiced rule and loosing their religion via the influence of the Egyptian culture. I understand some worked in elite Egyptian homes and the palace so I think they had some perks - they weren't all out building pyramids. Perhaps some were slaves because they broke the law or owed debts? They were a stiff-necked people.....unyielding and attached to routine/tradition.

Many tribes around the world had the dowry. Usually, nomadic women wore the gold dowry on their bodies in India and some places in Africa - these days, you'd be asking to get mugged but it worked for them.

After all, Moses was bonded (indentured) to His future first wife's (Zipporah) dad for a time.

chronology: ghost. The gold was given to the Hebrews just prior to their departure by Egyptians. Yes, when they left they were loaded down with gifts of gold.

ghostgeek: Yes, I see it written in in Exodus that the Hebrews "borrowed" jewels of silver and jewels of gold. It is also stated that because of their haste in leaving Egypt they didn't prepare food to take with them.

Exodus 12:39 ( King James Bible )

"And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual."

Isn't it strange how the Hebrews had the time to collect valuables, flocks and herds, and all manner of things that they required, but couldn't prepare a bit of grub.