Is There Something Wrong with the Concept of God? (Page 3) ghostgeek: Now as to preparing for future events, one can predict what might happen given certain circumstances. Stepping in front of a speeding car can be predicted to have unfortunate consequences but that doesn't mean one is pre-ordained to do such a stupid thing.  Zanjan: Now, going back to the dominoes, we see the force of invisible power easily enough. Naturally, we can explain it all by physics but more than this, we can see something else - we can observe the Plan of God in nature. On what foundation is this plan built? Firstly, we start with the premise that God *isn't* a concept. We could say God is energy, or a force or whatever that has always existed because there was a point somewhere that we humans noticed its presence. We can observe it in motion; all we need is to have that motion explained adequately. What's the motion? The name of it is "Unity". From this, we can take our cue to intuit how God works out our collective future. We should pattern ourselves after this method now, for our own sake to reduce unnecessary agony, because God's desire is to ultimately empower us and move us forward through it. Watch this experiment: (Edited by Zanjan) ghostgeek: I must be a little short on the vision thing Zanjan because all I can see is the physics. It's an impressive demonstration I'll admit, but when a big brain explains what's going on I rather lose the sense that God was involved. If the mind of Man can comprehend it I reckon we don't have to invoke the joker upstairs in our calculations. For anybody wanting an explanation that doesn't involve God the video below should help:  chay chayi: The same that a person had to put it all together, the board and wheels underneath, and he put it in action in the beginning, that proves the functioning existence prepeared (created) andoperated by God Zanjan: Seems you missed the point, Ghost. Obviously, everything can be correctly explained - even invisible forces. This is how professional illusionists get their paycheck -> that *they* know the answer and you don't. The point is that this process of relationship is useful for something. It has an application beyond entertainment. (he suggested one of them). The power of attraction can't be understated. Consider the "trick": They wont tell you the answer because anyone can duplicate it. Consider religious truth: They do tell you the answer because few can duplicate it. You see, even if you knew all the applications of a principle, you wouldn't know how to apply them correctly without God's guidance. He's the One Who created these laws of dynamics. First, you'd have to believe God knows what He's talking about when He says 'You need to do this and this; when you do that properly, you'll see for yourself how this works'. However, that's just faith - it's not enough to be convinced that something is true because not anyone can fully understand its purpose and how to apply. So........ Secondly, you'd need to trust God when He says 'This is how *I* apply this truth - you do the same and I promise that you will achieve perfect results'. This is the art of divine living - to acheive those results. THEN you'll fully understand. The ignorant and inexperienced ask why. God responds 'Because I have chosen for you the same thing I've chosen for Myself'. This is the best of the best, the most beautiful expression of power, knowledge and felicity. So, look at that example of unity again - do you see what it is? We all agree that unity is a good thing but few have realized it doesn't mean sameness. Unity is about order, direction and flow. Where do you want to go? You'll all need to learn and apply the principle to get there. Otherwise, you'll have confusion, lack of focus and chaos. By unity, wars will end. No fight will be necessary to achieve excellent results. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: While I've demonstrated the power of attraction, the greatest power is that of Love - this is the power God used to create everything in existence and is the one power that has no limitations. This love is the love of God; until we learn "unconditional love", we are powerless and utterly helpless, blind as newborn mewling kittens. (Edited by Zanjan) ghostgeek: Lets get down to brass tacks Zanjan. First, before talking about God's attributes, you have to show that He exists. It is clear to me that you and Chayiii and all you other true believers are sincere in your faith but you seem unable to convince the nonbeliver. You see, this is the part I don't understand. Why can't you demonstrate God to those who do not feel His presence? Why does a person seemingly need to believe before they can believe? The good salesperson is more than happy to demonstrate their wares to the prospective customer. So why does God seem so reluctant to follow best practice and give me a taster of His bounty before I sign up? Is it because He hasn't the power to do so or because He can't be bothered? Mmmm... you see, this is where we get to the awkward part. The point where I question the existence of this entity you call God. Being a somewhat contrary fellow, if I don't see evidence for something, I'm liable to doubt it exists. It's a small point, I know, but it does mean I can't get past go. chay chayi: Abraham found God by evidence, because he was "seeking" the truth, and who "really" is seeking the truth, finds it, and God revealed himself to Abraham ghostgeek: Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm not really seeking the truth. Of course, even with Abraham, one still has to believe that the stories told about him are truthful. I find myself asking, over and over again, can one accept the essential veracity of a narrative that is more than three thousand years in the making. To me, it seems too much belief has been built on slender foundations for it all to be correct. Oh, what it is to be a doubting Thomas.  orkanen: I did seek "Truth" for a long time. I even thought I had it some time, but since nothing but facts opposing "Truth" kept turning up, I eventually discarded "Truth". Only when you figure out why I reject your god will you be truly free.  trust1g4e: Matthew 7:13,14 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Zanjan: "Why can't you demonstrate God to those who do not feel His presence? " I've explained this before. This isn't my job. God has judged their abode and it's not mine to oppose His decisions. He doesn't want to be present in a soiled heart - that's His choice. It's up to them to change God's mind by shoveling out and dusting their chambers to attract His descent. Do you understand this now? "Why does a person seemingly need to believe before they can believe?" They don't - that's your warped perception of them. They've naturally intuited something exists that's greater than themselves and have longed to become more knowledgeable about it. They know they're not alone; noticing that so many others believe the same, they're bolstered by confirmations that this belief is not without just cause. Ergo, they investigate and become a student; consequently, some become disciples. "why does God seem so reluctant to follow best practice and give me a taster of His bounty before I sign up?" He does - see above. Some don't appreciate education because it requires effort. Why don't you ask God to make you look like Arnold Schwarzenegger - is it because you can simply enjoy looking at others who have great body builds? " can one accept the essential veracity of a narrative that is more than three thousand years in the making" If you can't, can you accept a modern one? (Edited by Zanjan) ghostgeek: No, sorry Zanjan, I still have this horrible feeling that all this talk of God is nothing but a mirage in the minds of believers. See, I'm a simple chap at heart. If I can't see something, can't hear it or feel it or smell it or taste it, indeed if no known test makes its presence detectable, then I'm apt to conclude that whatever it is, it doesn't exist. Not flavour of the month round these parts I know but, hey ho, that's me. To my mind, the only reason most of the world isn't locked up in the insane asylum right now is because it suffers from the collective delusion called religion. This form of madness is so common that people are apt to associate it with normality. Quite frankly, I don't think there will ever be a cure for it, sad to say. So I expect people will continue getting down on their knees and sticking their backsides up in the air, in the vain belief that by so doing they will reach Heaven. At least, while they're doing that, they can't be chopping peoples' heads off. I guess we'll just have to be thankful for small mercies in this tear stained world of ours. What do you say? Zanjan: I'm not sure how you gather that non-religious people are more sane than the religious. You might want to check out some penitentiaries, your non-sectarian government in session, the justice system, the media, flop houses, child protection services, houses of ill repute, big corporations, universities, Hollywood........ Well, the list where you can find a collection of non-religious nuts in a vortex of madness is fairly long. All mercy comes from God. Of course you don't believe that because you're an atheist but this topic asks if there's something wrong with the concept of God - that is, what people conceive of Him. (Edited by Zanjan) trust1g4e: John 15:26-27 King James Version (KJV) 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I (Jesus) will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye (disciples) have been with me from the beginning. Zanjan: Trust, you need to stop spamming the threads. Please choose your quotes specifically to match the subject. trust1g4e: It's all about putting first things first, so that clear judgments can be made concerning these complex issues. trust1g4e: Do all fish lay eggs? No, not all fish lay eggs. There are some fish that give birth to live young. One example is some species of shark. Other examples are mollies, swordtail, platies and guppies. Whale Shark The whale shark (Rhincodon typus) is a slow-moving filter feeding shark and the largest known extant fish species. The largest confirmed individual had a length of 12.65 m (41.50 ft) and a weight of more than 21.5 metric tons (47,000 lb), and unconfirmed reports of considerably larger whale sharks exist. Claims of individuals over 14 m (46 ft) long and weighing at least 30 mt (66,000 lb) are not uncommon. The whale shark holds many records for sheer size in the animal kingdom, most notably being by far the largest living non mammalian vertebrate, rivalling many of the largest dinosaurs in weight. The whale shark is found in tropical and warm oceans and lives in the open sea, with a lifespan of about 70 years.[3] Whale sharks have very large mouths, and as filter feeders, they feed mainly on plankton. The BBC program Planet Earth filmed a whale shark feeding on a school of small fish. | Religion Chat Room 41 People Chatting Similar Conversations |