Who Believes in the Devil? (Page 78)

Zanjan: You know, you've been at the Moses books for years; there isn't a corner you haven't taken pot shots at. You're still repeating all the same questions you ever had about them. Why don't you just set it aside and admit you're stumped and trumped?

Move on to the next Books. Ask new questions. Are you afraid to take shots at Jesus? If so, don't worry, He can handle it - He's got plenty of experience with being grilled and drilled.

ghostgeek: Stumped? I'm not claiming to be stumped. As it happens, I've just found this:

Newly published research by two archaeologists at Tel Aviv University in Israel shows that camels weren't domesticated in the eastern Mediterranean until the 10th century B.C.—several centuries after the time they appear in the Bible.

While there are conflicting theories about when the Bible was composed, the recent research suggests it was written much later than the events it describes. This supports earlier studies that have challenged the Bible's veracity as a historic document.

[ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140210-domesticated-camels-israel-bible-archaeology-science/ ]

Everything that comes along shows conclusively that Abraham and Moses were wandering around long after the Israelites had become a feature in Canaan.

ghostgeek: The study was able to "narrow down the range in which domesticated camels were introduced to 30 years," said Sapir-Hen, an archaeozoologist who studies the role of animals in ancient human culture, in a phone interview. It's "sometime between 930 and 900 B.C."

[ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140210-domesticated-camels-israel-bible-archaeology-science/ ]

ghostgeek: Now a little tidbit to show when the Egyptians in Canaan bunked off back home:

“Canaan was in a spiraling collapse that, once it started, fed off itself,” says Eric Cline of George Washington University. “The invasion of the Sea Peoples was one factor, but there was drought and with it came famine.” Even before Ramesses III’s rule, loyal Canaanite lords had warned in their letters to the pharaoh of uprisings and plots by rival states, and archaeological evidence suggests insurrection swept the Canaanite interior. By 1130 B.C., people had burned down the Egyptian ruling compounds in Megiddo, Lachish, and at least a dozen other cities. At some, up to 15 feet of ash have been discovered. Finally, the spreading revolt reached Jaffa.

[ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/262-1707/features/5627-jaffa-egypt-canaan-colony#art_page4 ]

ghostgeek: The only thing believers in the Bible have going for them is their stubborn refusal to accept the weight of evidence pointing to the book being a late confection that was compiled to deceive.

Zanjan: Ghost, camels were never native to the land of Canaan or Africa. Archeology doesn't point to origin or the initial presence. DNA does and can precisely locate gene markers for artificial breeding, which is what domestication entails.

If you're going to match biblical dates, you should consult the right branch of science.
The oldest bones found at X location doesn't mean all the bones have been found there or in the region.

DNA evidence shows the dromedary was domesticated on the south east coast of Arabia 7000 years ago. Whereas the Bactrian, which was native to the steppes of central Asia, was domesticated in South Western Mongolia and North Eastern China, 5,000 - 6,000 years ago.

Archeology shows that the Egyptians had small cats and dogs 4000 years ago. DNA evidence shows those cats were domesticated in Turkey 9,500 years ago. Whereas, DNA evidence shows that dogs were domesticated twice - once in Europe and once in China, between 12,500 and 15,000 years ago.

The silk road wasn't blazed during Abraham's time but trade still occurred between closer countries. DNA study is re-writing the history of all origins and origins of domestication.

If one were to find the burial places of Moses and Abraham, then take samples from their teeth or bones, this argument would be so done......but no one wants to exhume the resting place of Holy Ones. Thankfully, we have DNA material for the most recent Revelator of God so that folks such as you wont ignore history.

Zanjan: Drought has always been common in Israel - most of it is desert; even near fresh water sources, it's semi-arid. . It's also common where I live (semi-arid region), where droughts follow sun spot cycles and last for about 7 years, which ends with massive flooding. . A sun spot cycle is 11 years. If you can count to 11, you can predict them like clockwork.

You keep bouncing between Abraham and Moses, forgetting that the resident tribes of the Levant territories also fought each other, one on one. Greek fought, Turkey fought - everybody fought as the Middle Bronze Age ushered in the rise of empires, which ended in the 1800s. The only empire building going on now is in the corporate world, and we know how odoriferous that is.

Seems to me, Abraham's visit to Egypt resulted in Egypt's sudden advance; especially when Joseph was a Pharoah, Egypt enjoyed a lot of prosperity. He has his own pyramid. Every great civilization was built on a new religion; and, every one of them fell on it.

You see, a long run of prosperity tends to work negatively on leaders, causing over-inflated pride and confidence in themselves.

Surely you're aware that Egypt occasionally contended with its own revolts, where many inscriptions, statues and monuments were defaced because the people were angry with the Imperials. Therefore, you've got 3 historical chronologies - government, secular and religious - none of them line up with each other.

Some of those historical inscriptions about the Pharaoh turned out to be lies, boasting about battles. Who's word would you trust - the establishment or the grass roots people? I was taught a lot of BS Canadian history in school because the curriculum was designed by the government - they turned out to be liars too. The truth was much darker for minorities.

Zanjan: "up to 15 feet of ash have been discovered"

Did they have it analyzed? Sounds like volcanic ash. If so, science can identify exactly which volcano it came from and when. History records many problems both before but mostly after the eruption of Thera, which was a VE7, a super colossal.

This type occurs once every 500 - 1,000 years, very close to the birth of a Revelator. Thera's was the second largest volcanic eruption in human history. The Tsunami would have been monstrous, hitting all shores of the Mediterranean.

Nobody can enjoy prosperity forever.

ghostgeek: Thera might have produced a bit of a wave but it didn't finish off the Minoans so it most certainly didn't trouble the Egyptians. What's getting my attention at the moment are those iron chariots of the Canaanites that poor old God couldn't turn back. Sounds like Joshua was well and truly into the Iron Age when he decided the Israelites needed Lebensraum.

ghostgeek: So when did the Iron Age start?

The Iron Age is divided into two subsections, Iron I and Iron II. Iron I (1200-1000)

[ https://www.bu.edu/anep/Ir.html ]

So Old Joe was doing his massacring after 1200 BC.

Zanjan: "it didn't finish off the Minoans"

Oh really? That civilization disappeared off the map. They say the people had a chance to escape the island - that doesn't mean they escaped Thera's fury. The Tsunami was so powerful, it destroyed and submerged ports as far as the coast of Spain.

Some thought the Islanders just assimilated back into regular Greek communities but, on what grounds? Nobody was keeping records. Memories were lost, only rubble is left. After Mt. Vesuvius covered Pompeii with ash, nature reclaimed the place and nobody remembered where the town was.

Nobody has their dates quite right about history that's so ancient. The Phoenicians were a mighty civilization, ruling the Mediteranean trades routes, having established great city states all over, from Carthage to the islands of the Aegean.

Their home base was along the coast of Canaan - nobody agrees when they arrived in Canaan - some place them at 1,500 B.C., others during the 12th century - same time as when the Philistines arrived.

Nobody knows what happened to the Phonecians - that civilization of purple people just disappeared! They were NOT in Canaan when David was (c. 1000 B.C.E). When David fought the Philistines, the ME was just coming out of a 400 year long period of the dark ages. The United Kingdom of Israel had already been established.

Maybe the Philistines were the remnants of the corrupted and ruined Phoenician survivors? The Philistines were brutes and merely occupied. Maybe they'd just changed their name?

What we DO know is that some cataclysmic event occurred that caused all the civilizations to fall and sink into those dark ages. People had been migrating everywhere. I'd suggest Thera finished them all off, leaving only stragglers.

Zanjan: Re, the Iron Age.

The Ages of man didn't start everywhere at the same time, or on a specific day. Interestingly, there could be great expanses of time between one place having the technology and another place far off, developing it independently of each other.

Example: a chariot is a war machine. That you see a chariot for the first time, doesn't imply you know how to build one. The chariot originated in Mesopotamia in 3,000 B.C. China first used it in 1,200 B.C.

There is evidence people in Mesopotamia were smelting Iron in 5,000 B.C; artifacts made of smelted Iron were found in Egypt dating to 3,000 B.C. These peoples didn't have much contact with each other; the technology was localized and crude.

Developing it for certain purposes takes more time........cast and wrought iron. For instance, making a fishing line sinker, a post or cook pot, requires different methods. Then there is distribution to consider. Refinement is credited to the Anatolians and Balkans in 1,300 B.C.

Here's how it works:

Traditionally, new technology developed out of wars - it's what wins them so they don't give away their tech to the enemy. They still don't as they must maintain the advantage for as long as possible. The key is secrecy.
Only after the war has been won and peace is upon them, does man share the recipe so it can be applied to new uses. When everyone is making it, THAT's when the technology becomes an "Age".

So, Iron technology predates the Age. For the Levant, it officially began in the 12th century B.C.E. Iron swords were everywhere. The only part of a chariot I can think of that would be made of iron is the cog in wheel hub - maybe they fashioned spikes into it, like in Ben Hur?

Zanjan: The religious significance of transportation goes back to Krishna, 5 thousand years ago. The body was likened to the horse and your soul was its driver. How fast and where you went depended not so much on the horse but on one's horsemanship.

Moving forward in time, the chariot or cart takes its place, even in pagan cultures. Fast forwarding again, we have the bicycle, then the car. These all symbolize the speed with which you're spiritually progressing. If you park your vehicle, you're not going anywhere.

Zanjan: You, Ghost, are on foot.....at your very best, you might get access to a wheelchair.

ghostgeek: A LONGSTANDING theory of archeology, linking a devastating volcanic eruption to the sudden collapse of the Minoan civilization at its peak of splendor, has apparently been demolished by new excavations on a tiny island off the north coast of Crete.

Digging on the island of Mochlos last summer, two archeologists discovered what they called the first direct and conclusive evidence that the volcanic eruption 70 miles away on Thera, the present-day island of Santorini, did not destroy the Minoan civilization of ancient Crete, as had been widely assumed. They uncovered architectural and ceramic remains indicating instead that the civilization continued to flourish for some 150 years after the eruption in about 1600 B.C.

[ https://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/28/science/minoan-culture-survived-ancient-volcano-evidence-shows.html ]

ghostgeek: The city-states of Phoenicia flourished through maritime trade between c. 1500-322 BCE when the major cities were conquered by Alexander the Great and, after his death, the region became a battleground in the fight between his generals for succession and empire.

[ https://www.ancient.eu/phoenicia/ ]

ghostgeek: You are right on one thing. I do a lot of walking. Some people think it's good for you.

Zanjan: Ok, read the article – not sure what the point was you were trying to make, as we had previously (before iron) been discussing Thera and what happened to its inhabitants (known as Minoans).

In that context, we look to “the structural evidence with pottery was Above the ash layer”
I have a few questions.

1. Pray tell, where were these people YOU think came from Thera while the ash was raining down??? Did they scoot off to England until it was safe to return? If you were leaving in a hurry, would the first thing you grabbed be some pottery? On their way back, did they loot the buildings left standing on Thera, then cart the booty over to this tiny island off Crete? Lots of speculation here.

2. You know, I used to live in a Tudor style home and had some genuine Wedgewood china. Would you infer from this that I’m a citizen of England? We still build courthouses, libraries and museums with Roman and Greek style pillars – what does that say, that we just love that timeless, classy look? Surely, it doesn’t date me.

3. Have you seen this Island and where it is? It’s a windswept rock the size of my back yard with no trees on it. It’s like a 10 minute canoe trip to Crete. The Minoans built a large civilization on Crete, which flourished between 2600 B.C. – 1450 BC. Seems to me, it was the inhabitants of Crete who re-built structures on this Island. There’s no indication the builders were from Thera.

4. Who said the Volcano, alone, caused the destruction of the Minoans? It was the last straw, the straw that broke the camel’s back, crushing the Minoan civilization.

As previously stated, there had been a long standing period of corruption and war, which caused a disintegrating situation all over the Near and Middle East. The eruption was just part of that death spiral. The Greek Dark Age occurred with the collapse of the Mycenaean (Mainland) civilization.

The Greeks, themselves, were still around to build a house or two through the whole thing.

Zanjan: Walking is only good for you if you have excellent shoes, specifically made for that activity; and, you know not to walk where you shouldn't.

Everything has a caveat.

ghostgeek: A 300-year drought may have caused the demise of several Mediterranean cultures, including ancient Greece, new research suggests.

A sharp drop in rainfall may have led to the collapse of several eastern Mediterranean civilizations, including ancient Greece, around 3,200 years ago. The resulting famine and conflict may help explain why the entire Hittite culture, chariot-riding people who ruled most of the region of Anatolia, vanished from the planet, according to a study published today (Aug. 14) in the journal PLOS ONE.

[ https://www.livescience.com/38893-drought-caused-ancient-mediterranean-collapse.html ]

This, of course, happened about four hundred years after Thera popped.

ghostgeek: We thus have Thera causing a bit of a mess, followed by the New Kingdom in Egypt and, at the end of the period, those naughty Philistines come prancing on stage. We also know, from Egyptian records, that before the Philistines arrived the Israelites were causing a bit of bother. Then we open our Bibles and read that Abraham couldn't get enough of those lusty Philistines while Moses wanted to steer well clear of them. And then we hear in Joshua how iron chariots gave God the shivers. Well, add this pottage up and one thing becomes clear. The Abe and Mo show was broadcasting after 1200BC, and well into the Ironage, by which time the Israelites had staked out their claim to the hill country.

ghostgeek: If you want to find God you'll have to look somewhere else for Him than in the pages of the Bible.

Zanjan: Ghost, the drought you posted about is NOT news; it also began much earlier.

Droughts spread, flooding waters spread, famines spread......we know where each one began. Since it happens several times in one lifespan, we remember when that situation reversed and we enjoyed a return to great weather, farming and hunting. Although this cycle is short, it's still long enough to cause many to become complacent, forgetting there's a bend in the road ahead, that all things must pass.

Occasionally, centuries apart, all these coalesce into a mega extreme that lasts a very long time. It's beginnings are no longer remembered. The new normal eventually becomes the standard normal - that's when the living haven't known any other situation.

I have a documentary from the 80's that sets the Bronze Age events and reasons known for the collapse of all those civilizations around the same time. Adding a new detail doesn't change the story. It was a combination of many things one can only describe as the domino effect.

Flourishing means "to thrive" - to open like a new flower. 1,600 B.C. saw only old civilizations.

No big establishment was built in a day, neither does it fall in a day - it's fate is sealed several hundred years before the world notices. Just like individual humans, a once vibrant civilization dies inside before its body outwardly dies.

A Revelator appears because faith in God has died out everywhere; corruption and oppression abounds; everyone's heart is cold because they've been experiencing the long winter of the soul. No life is robust at this time.

Nothing is flourishing - whatever greatness any nation had is credited to those who came long before them. All these winter people are doing is sitting on their forefather's laurels. Since they're no longer maintaining what was built, their world has fallen to neglect.

According to Baha'i scriptures, when a Revelator appears, He's the first man in that generation to believe in God. Through Him, the breath of the Holy Spirit begins waking up the souls, even raising the dead. A nascent civilization, however tiny and obscure, is being built on top of the rubble of the old institutions. While there's always the few who are enjoying prosperity, these are the only people who are thriving.

Zanjan: Ergo, when a Revelator appears, the world doesn't even know about it. No effect can be seen at first.

People are partying because that's what they must do to simulate happiness; even the high and mighty have their accumulating worries and fears. They get drunk to suppress their own pain so are oblivious to the pain of others. They're impulsive, emotional; their thinking is clouded so everyone is easily touched off. Conflicts and rebellions at every level in society increase.

Long story short, receptive individuals know what's coming next and are well-prepared, being ready to start over. The remainder know what they've lost but are trying to re-claim it. Thus, the Trumps of yore asserted they could be great again. They didn't factor in everything. The strife and conflicts continued.

When nature causes disaster on top of that, humans can still rebound; but when it strikes too many times in quick succession, there's not enough resources to recover.

A combination of earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, sudden massive weather changes, be it mega floods, hurricanes or severe drought, kills crops, animals and people on land and in the sea. Climbing death rates create much greater demand for resources but all this tumult has cut off the trade routes and sucked up the labour force to new areas.

We know this because we have letters sent between the kings. The Trumps of yore, while still having a few rocks to lob, were admitting they could no longer feed their military and supply it with amo so, they had to retreat. They couldn't afford war anymore....they had only enough to hang on.

The Egyptian Civilization lasted 3000 years (the longest ever) but during that span, it experienced some notable episodes of trouble. Yet, it jump-started itself each time (change of leadership or religion explains its resilience) so, defining the civic "end point" is difficult until its final descent.

The drought and subsequent prevailing winds caused the Saharan sands to sweep over Egypt; the once green areas were now desert and the sands were engulfing the Sphinx. At that time, the pharaoh Thutmosis IV, who lived around 1400 B.C., put up the stele on the Sphinx describing this woeful disaster as it was continuing.

Meanwhile, the band of Moses followers was increasing; He said He would lead them through and out of this mess as long as they obeyed the new Covenant with God. The scriptures tell how that victory didn't come easily or quickly but it did arrive as promised.

You know, if you have a glass of water and keep adding a grain of salt at a time to it, the water remains clear. After many grains added, the water becomes bitter but is still clear. Then, suddenly, when one grain more is added, the water instantly becomes white like a cloud and solidifies. Maximum absorption has occurred.

ghostgeek: I like to keep things simple. That's why, when I read the Bible and find Moses's father-in-law being called by three different names, Reuel, Jethro, and Hobab, I start to wonder if somebody is telling a big fib but can't remember the lies they've told.