The dominoes keep falling around the faith-based opposition surrounding same-sex marriage

davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Utah, one of the most socially conservative states, is the site of the latest signal that the faith-based opponents of same-sex marriage are gradually seeing their views on the issue fall away like so many tattered footnotes of history. A judge there ruled last week that it is unconstitutional to have laws barring same-sex marriage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/us/utahs-gay-marriage-ban-is-ruled-unconstitutional.html?ref=samesexmarriage
If the judge's ruling holds, and it surely will, it is only a matter of time before all states acknowledge that equal protection under law and the great U.S. Constitution applies to everyone, not just straight people.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: another victory!!
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Indeed, indeed. The march forward defeats the march backward.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: : eventually
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There are those who hold the Constitution as the top authority. Those people decide the laws.

You may have heard that South Africa's Constitution banned same sex marriage because they wanted to preserve traditional family values. THEY decided those laws.

Then there are those who hold God as top authority - those don't make or decide any laws; they follow them equally.

We should be free to choose either as the top authority without duress. Obviously, you can't have two top authorities on the same thing.



(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: CAn't you Zanjan? God says the greatest commandment is to love and put no other God before him. That we are ALL His sons and daughters. Loved equally.
Man's greatest laws reflect human rights and freedoms equally and without prejudice. Seems to me like they have the same values
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Zanjan
Zanjan: No, it's God's laws that inspire man to set humans rights on paper. They're not as good at it as God is though.

Values and principles aren't the same thing. A Constitution doesn't prevent wrong. God's teachings do.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: If people adhere to them. But they don't do they?
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Once again, we see the evil of religious dogma and fanaticism bleating. Uhh, I mean, errr, Zanjan is back!
God's laws indeed.
Hey god, if yer out there, up there, somewhere, anywhere....can you fix this taking of your word in vain?
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: He has bigger fish to fry.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: You know I was not talkin bout you
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: I know but He still has bigger fish to fry so He asked me to do this to you
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Tell him I'll pop him one right back unless he buys me a beer. And it better be a GOOD beer.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: nup tell him that yourself!!
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Looks like Utah may be another state that quickly changes its mind on the subject. As the dominoes fall, watch the back-peddling. The people have spoken and threatened their politicians, who don't know what to do.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: As noted in the past, the majority does not rule when it comes to matters of law and the Constitution. The law and the Constitution rule. If the majority ruled, blacks would have been barred from restaurant counters, movie houses,hotels and the vote a whole lot longer than they were. Praise the Utah judge who issued this ruling, for he is correct.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>They're not as good at it as God is though.

Not as good as Gods? God's laws permit rape, and condones slavery. God's laws close down stores on Sundays, under penalty of death, and declare that if a woman touches anything while she is on the rag, that becomes filthy and must be washed and/or destroyed....

Sounds like a real good system....
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Dave, there's a difference between federal rule and state rule - it's not entirely decentralized. In the USA, it's far more decentralized than in Canada, almost to the point of states acting independently.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Lipton - cite where God's law permits rape. The old world had slavery but God saw why the people needed it in those times - you don't. God's law was to treat slaves well, reward them, respect them, and be just and fair to them.

However, God's Law has now forbidden slavery - that's why it's been nearly eliminated. God's Law isn't confined to Christianity. God's Law is to stop work on Holy Days, whichever Holy Day a religion observes. If not for Holy Days, the heathens would get any time off.

As for menstruation, if you cant respect a woman's cycle, you don't deserve to be with one. Don't be a swinehunt!




(Edited by Zanjan)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Federal law supercedes state law, where there is an issue of constitutionality. You can argue up, down, backwards and sideways about some laws set by a dreamed-up god. Banning same-sex marriage is a violation of equal protection under the Constitution, which forms the basis of the law in the United States. As such, those laws shall and must be overturned. All the god blather in the world cannot change this.
Let us be clear here about the church-state division. No law can compel any religious club to provide for same-sex marriage. And no law can allow or compel a government entity to deny it.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The Constitution wasn't written with gay marriage in mind...........now a special interest group want to change that? Doesn't surprise me - after interpretation fails, that's what many try to do to God's laws too.

By such interpretation, people have been lead to death and destruction.

I agree on your last point. However, remember this is a principle. That would be over-ridden if religious law conflicted with civil government law.

For example, in Quebec, the civil government is attempting to foist on all the people their charter of values. Note: Quebec is predominantly Catholic and Mafia stomping grounds.

Firstly, government's values stink because they;'re corrupt; secondly, that's what a dictatorship is. Government can't change people! Certainly, it has no business telling them how to think. They serve US, not the other way around.

That said, we PAY these politicians to speak for ALL of us; we PAY them to vote for ALL of us (not any select group). Therefore, in my opinion, if any of those weasels abstain from voting when in session, I consider that derelict of duty.

Under rule of procedure, the government, using the principle of democracy, still falls to majority vote; otherwise, you wouldn't have the hypocrites abstaining from voting. If they had consensus, there wouldn't be a need to vote.

If the government respected the people's sensitivities, this particular issue would go to a plebiscite. The upright thing to do is vote for the greater good - that is, for the best interest of ALL, not a particular group, and to consider if that good will still be good a few generations down the road.




(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: Even in Canada there are local differences. Like taxation on the goods, services and resources available and therefore on the infrastructure also. So yes there are provincial differences in Canada. Even marketers get they have to represent the local people and their ethos. So the government most certainly does.
Language laws in Quebec are a very good example of that fact.
(Edited by near50ohoh)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>> cite where God's law permits rape.

Where is it in the ten commandments? It condones murder, theft, adultry- demands you treat others, such as your parents and neighbours with respect- all those these are pushed forward by theologians as proof that our laws had a religious background- but no sign of rape? No "Thou shall not rape" or "thou shall not nail a nine year old", or even "thou shall not keep a slave"

As for where does the bible permit rape specifically?

Numbers 31:7-18 clearly has moses giving the virgins of a conquered lands up as sex slaves("So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." )

Judges 21:10-24clearly has soldiers sneaking onto peoples farms and snatching their daughters to marry and rape("23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them." )

In our society, if a man rapes a woman, he's locked away for doing such a horrible act. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29, if a man rapes a woman, he keeps her as his bride- but only if he gets caught ("28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." )

Shall I keep going? there's a bunch more.....

>>>The old world had slavery but God saw why the people needed it in those times

Hahaha so slaves were part of Gods greater purpose?

At what time was slavery not needed? I'm sure that the United Confederacy needed slaves to keep their country running....

Is this based on what is said in religious texts? Or just you assuming the unknowable will of God?

And regardless- you say we shouldn't hold our laws above the laws of God- clearly then, the laws of God supports the use of slaves.

So are you suggesting, since we should hold God's laws above our own, that we should return to the use of slavery?

>>>God's law was to treat slaves well, reward them, respect them, and be just and fair to them.

Gotcha- so you think slavery should return, and so long as they are treated nicely, slaves won't mind being slaves.

You should talk to sex slave workers. Remind them that they're there because God needs them to be, and that they're taking part in God's Laws. Im sure that'd make the repeated raping seem swell....

>>>However, God's Law has now forbidden slavery

It has? Well that's awfully progressive of him- where is it written?

>>>As for menstruation, if you cant respect a woman's cycle, you don't deserve to be with one. Don't be a swinehunt!

Don't call me names for quoting the bible! It literally states that wherever a woman sits, that place will become unclean, and whomever sits there days later will also become unclean.

You insist that Gods Laws are better- shouldn't people be asking about a woman's cycle more often, to protect themselves from being unclean in the eye of the lord? If we are following God's laws, I should be able to ask that woman police officer if she's being visited by aunt flow, and if so, refuse to have her touch my drivers license- wouldn't want to have to replace it...



The gist of what I wrote, though, is that 'God's Law' is utter rubbish. You pick and choose which parts of the bible to support, and which to ignore, which doesn't make any sense. If the bible is inspired by God, and infallible, then you have to take all of it's works into effect, and not shrug your shoulders and say "Oh, well, Gays are bad, but menstruation is something that should be kept private"



>>>The Constitution wasn't written with gay marriage in mind

Nor was it written with woman's suffrage in mind, or the abolishment of slavery in mind, or numerous other ideas in mind - the United States Constitution has been changed 27 times in over 300 years- the first changes made to the constitution occurred less than 2 years after it was ratified.

Suggesting the constitution cannot be changed is ignoring a long history of it being changed

>>>Under rule of procedure, the government, using the principle of democracy, still falls to majority vote

But Canada and the US isn't a democracy- it's a Representative Republic. Like you said- we don't personally vote on laws- we vote on people to represent us.

And our system was designed with checks and balances, to prevent a majority from pushing around a minority(namely the Legislative, Executive, and Judaical branches...)

>>> that is, for the best interest of ALL, not a particular group, and to consider if that good will still be good a few generations down the road.

It would be for the greater good to deny Homosexual relationships equality?
(Edited by LiptonCambell)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Lipton, I didn't call you names : I said "IF you...", as in the generic 'you'. Furthermore, you hadn't cited the Bible at that point. . Neither do you have any medical background.

YOU aren't a woman. YOU have no idea what it's like to manage a period without access to feminine products, not even safety pins. You assume "rags" appeared like disposable paper towels, that they had instant access to springs of fresh clean water, even in the desert heat. YOU have no concept of ancient women's' inconveniences!

It's precisely because men are that inconsiderate and clueless, that God had to help the women by directing His voice to the men.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You seem to be confused as to the the difference between a law and a tribal council decision. Moses said none of those things in some of your citations. You've cited the council's displeasure with military insubordination.

In war, they killed heathens because there were no POW camps; taking the enemy into one's own tribe was a stupid decision because they'd face insurgence and revenge killings. But young girls are resilient and able to learn.

They took the enemy girls as wives, not one-night stands; men, in those days, couldn't survive with out women to run their household. Since females didn't have employment status, they couldn't survive without the men to support them.

What's the difference between that and arranged marriage? Do you think these men were so unlovable the girls wouldn't take to liking them? I bet you think the men would beat their wives too.

There was no Law of God that says "take slaves"; there was guidance as to what to do with slaves. The world you live in today is not the world of primitive peoples. I wonder at the person who takes offense at history and imagines a simple, child-like people can grow up overnight and act like responsible adults, even without any accessories or world power.

There's always going to be some dork who breaks the law, and this is what must be done when that happens because that's the law of the land, serving both pagans and Jews. It was a religious state.

">>>However, God's Law has now forbidden slavery

It has? Well that's awfully progressive of him- where is it written?"

It's written in the Baha'i scriptures, along with the law of the equality of men and women. This was in the mid 1800's, before such things were even thought of by slave-owners or man - by that I mean, as a law for the whole planet - ALL of mankind, not just a religion or country. When God says "BE", it is. And so it was.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Lipton, you're points are all well taken and well reasoned, and will be lost on the likes of Zanjan, who just want to yell god god god god god until the heavens fall onto the earth. And they yell it some more. For them, there is no wiggle room, no modification, no progress, no change, no accounting for evolving thought and experience. Just god god god god god GOD, as they see it.
I can only be thankful for the thoughtful - in this case, the thoughtful who see that gays deserve equal protection UNDER THE LAW, regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on the matter of two men or two women loving each other. You can condone same-sex couples or you can be grossed out by it. Just give all consenting, law abiding adult couples the same protection under the law. Do that, and you will have a more fair and just society.
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