The Serpent told the truth, God lied. (Page 229)

Zanjan
Zanjan: I showed the difference between fantasy and reality. Which do you prefer? I can't make people's choices for them, I can only

If one doesn't want to come up with evidence for their own proposal, what right have they to demand others do? No offense intended, I don't accept double standards or answer questions I've already answered.

I'll respond to sincere questions and repeat only when it applies to new material. For example, the old guard at Wire knows that when I quote Baha'i scriptures here, it's always the first time I've posted it...must be more than a hundred quotations by now. You'd be hard-pressed to accuse me of having favourite verses or manipulation.
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chronology
chronology: Sorry zan but sceptics would say you are avoiding them.

Just give us some proof, they would say.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Skeptics aren't looking for truth - they're casting their nets for lies. I'm ok with that.
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chronology
chronology: Another avoided answer. Zan you dance better than Muhammad Ali.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Maybe go for a dictionary definition, eh?

I was once a skeptic myself - never an atheist; skeptics sort out the fakers from the genuine whenever they smell a rat. They don't come up with conjecture, they follow patterns. Skeptics sit on the fence, able to see good and evil accurately. One day, they'll get off the fence, guaranteed.

God will give us good judgment if our heart is in the right place. He doesn't want us to fall hook, line, and sinker for everything........only for Him.
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chronology
chronology: Zan.......... You float like a butterfly, and sting like a bee.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Thank you
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Is this where we ask for proof of God? Show us the old bugger exists and maybe I'll start believing some of your utterances.
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Srchng4Truth
Srchng4Truth: You may have to take a leap of Faith to see the evidence. I don't make the rules. That is just what I believe to be my experience.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ghost, you don't have to believe in God to read and grasp the elements of a story. You may think it's a work of fiction but surely you can spot the dynamics, pick out the plots and sub-plots, relate to the characters and emotions, and find the moral in the story.

The Adam and Eve story is one with many layers and meanings - it's timeless. It's also scientifically, historically, and spiritually true. There was no way to convey the technical depth of knowledge to the ancients so Moses used metaphors, analogy, and the parable - literary tools to convey these truths. He was the LINK between the physical and spiritual realms.

For example, the story claims we're all descended from a single set of parents. This is scientifically true but goes further back in geological time than Adam, the Man, the first Revelator. We see an indication of this in the creation of Eve from one of Adam's ribs.

A rib cage is a Bone Tree. A family tree can include a variety of cultures - that's, ethnicity. However, the Bone Tree has evolutionary branches - actual races of humans.

We know these races interbred at some point in their contact with each other - once they produced new strains and genes, the old races died out. They'd served their purpose.

The story states there were humans around before Adam appeared. We already know that former races of humans couldn't comprehend divine concepts because they didn't have the brain parts. They were just another mammal, behaving like animals but far more clever and resourceful. However, once Adam appears, there's a wow impact on human progress. Plenty of evidence for that.

This is only one level of the story. You should be able to get that one, understanding no human could have known this back then. So, you must ask, how did Moses know?

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chronology
chronology: Zan,
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Srchng4Truth
Srchng4Truth: I don't think it is laughable to say that all human descended from the same ancestor

I think that is a leading scientific theory.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: So somebody on here still thinks Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. OK, so I'll ask one question. Has anybody got any proof that he put pen to paper?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: And all those grunting apemen. Do we really know what they could and couldn't understand?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Searching4...........there is no evidence of *humans* having descended from a shared ancestor because that goes back too far in time - to the first mammals. Lucy, the oldest identifiable human, was a Hominid called Australopithecus afarensis. She was one of many ancestors.

The Bible is referring to the intellectual human race; there has only ever been one - H. Sapiens, the archaic (300,000 yrs old) and, the modern (160,000 years old). So, we have that ancestry.

Nobody knows why *modern* Sapien abilities lay dormant for so long. Perhaps a geological event or two massively reduced their population, along with any other existing races. They'd need time to recover and adapt.

Following this, God strengthened human perceptions and the first Revelator arrived (Adam). Those early periods are lost to us so we trace the signs of new technology and arts because they're linked.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Moses was the author of the laws and guidance; He or His scribe (s) would have written them down. Any paper would have dissolved in time but there were clay and stone tablets - the originals gone.

A Revelator doesn't write an autobiography. Moses's followers recounted all events and continued recording developments after His passing.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Do we really know what they could and couldn't understand? " - Ghost


We only know by their brain configuration and what they could do, based on what they left behind. Homo Naledi was a real surprise - even with an underdeveloped tiny brain, they could make fire 335,000 years ago. One would expect they'd have normal emotions and attachments - so do elephants - but that they went to such tremendous effort to preserve and honour their dead was a stunning revelation.

That raises one question: is this a spiritual response or a religious ritual?

I don't think it had anything to do with religion. There were practical reasons. You see, they had gathered flowers/herbs in season and sprinkled them around the graves, plants known to repel scavengers. Together with the remote, difficult access, this is proof they didn't want the remains of their loved ones disturbed. More discussion would be interesting.

This doesn't prove all Naledi groups buried their dead or all of their dead in that manner. Historically, humans have been mighty picky about who got a decent or glorious burial. We're still that way. We've also been known to desecrate grave sites.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Not easy to talk about what people in the past belived when you have no connection to their mental landscape. Yes. people long ago may have sprinkled flowers around graves but saying why is going to be an uphill task without being able to ask them.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: So was Moses the author of the laws and guidance? If he was, we only have an unreliable book to tell us he was.
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h0nd0 
h0nd0: decay smells bad.. flowers smell good.. throw a little salt in and some sugar.. and it's tolerable..
it preserves the body to some degree.. naturally.. respect the dead longer.. like bait fishermen do it all the time.. to get the most out of the remainder of the "good"" it can bring ..we still do it.. makes little fish worth as much as Gold..

Moses might have died, but he i`m sure already told the stories to his companions to finish his work.. like i told my children what were my goals.. what was imperative to me to finish.. only my testament could do that.. it's not hard to understand.. we always want to outlive our own mind in some way.. if we die with something undone .. we wish to be apart of its finality..
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Indeed. You can't put everything in a Will......you've got to train the people who will carry on your work so they can honour what's in your Will. We can't all be trailblazers but we can be the broad beams, holding the house together.

I really love anchovies. I don't care if they give me a heart attack.. their price prevents me from over-dosing.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “saying why is going to be an uphill task without being able to ask them.” – Ghost

You’re right. However, some physical evidence tells us the story of love.

We know in what season a body was buried because of the type of wildflowers they used. Nobody puts herbs around a grave unless they know exactly what the herbs do. The Naledi knew what a rotting body attracts; these were special herbs, known to repel bugs, worms, and other pests.

They knew the best- preserved bodies were those laid to rest in a cave. That knowledge carried forward to the man-made version - the tomb and mausoleum.

We can’t deduce that prehistoric humans believed in a hereafter but we can read the room.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “we only have an unreliable book to tell us he was [the Author] - Ghost

We also have accounts of folks who followed His teachings and laws with great success; and stories of those who didn’t. Those of the future can’t challenge the past unless physical evidence is discovered. In most cases, the discoveries support scriptural accounts.

We’re not in any position to say a whole book is unreliable because we think we found an error. God ensures *His Word* is protected…….not so for human memories and perspectives. We're not supposed to be following the dictates of history but the directives of the Lord of the Age.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Good old Moses. Only a few centuries late for getting Israel off the ground. His scarecrow followers didn't turn up in the Promised Land until the first millennium BC, by which time the Jewish inhabitants had figured out how to build things and how to kill.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There were no *Jewish* inhabitants in the Promised Land at that time because Moses's followers were known as Israelites, migrants who drifted in as settlers in a foreign land. There's no evidence they all arrived on the same date. First, Joshua had to clear the way with his army and make peace treaties with the local tribes.

The Israelites were a camping community for a long time. Once safely secured, the community of young settlers spread out. Each tribe was given a region to farm; it takes time to set up a farm. Accounts say all 12 tribes were united for 120 years.

Around 1, 000 B.C., some of them wanted more. Although warned against it, they demanded a temporal king because they wanted to establish sovereign rights as a nation. They got it and made Jerusalem their capital - the region given to the tribe of Judah. From then on, anyone who came from Jerusalem was called a Jew - that's a tribal designation, not religious.

Israelite unity dissolved after their 3rd king; then the land was divided into two kingdoms. The one thing that keeps coming back to us is the importance of unity; it's the tool required for success, prosperity and happiness.

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