Will religion ever cleanse itself of its incredibly filthy laundry?

davesdatahut: This today in the news, about abusive priests in Los Angeles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/us/church-documents-released-after-years-of-resistance.html?hp&_r=0

And earlier this week, an orthodox Jewish rabbi got sentenced to 103 years in prison for abusing a girl under this supposedly therapeutic care, while others in his Brooklyn, NY, community try to silence those who will speak out.

Will this sort of vile fallout from religion ever end?

klingon: No, it's impossible for every follower of a religion to live according to its (hopefully intended) teaching.

davesdatahut: It may also be impossible for the so-called and self-annointed leaders of religions to behave in a way that remotely suggests that they practice what they preach. If you could somehow separate the clergy from religion, you may actually have a force for good in the world. But perhaps this is too much to ask?

Zanjan: You cant have laundry if you're a new religion, right? That's why so many break-away sects.

Let's be realistic. Every generation has its own who have abused their position of trust;.how many get caught and punished depends on how moral the society is at the time.

Good point about those 'authorities' - that's why my religion doesn't have clergy. There was a use for clergy in the past because books weren't available to the common man until the 1500's; not that it was of much use then, since most people remained illiterate and poorly educated for another three hundred years after that.

The cleric was their walking book, so how could people contest him? They depended on him to assist them with their legal and medical matters so, they were kinda screwed, ya know? Small town, don't make waves.

Well, most common folk can read now, so it's become more difficult for individuals to breach trust without assistance from the 'inside'. When the authorities turn a blind eye to a wrong or cover it up, you know somebody's either been lining their pockets, or nailing them with blackmail.

My religion has countered that with a new model of administration - unlike the past, there will be no more day followed by night. No religious dynasty/ruling class that soon become corrupt.

The people, themselves, are sitting in the seat of power; they serve at every level in the administration and teaching. Power and Authority are permanently separated and governance is de-centralized. Loopholes have been closed, there's no more rigging. All doors are shut to keep the snakes out.

You don't get clean laundry without using a spot remover.

Comrade_: No, I don't think it will end (at least not any time in the near future). Mainly because it is a human defect. Religion isn't the cause of it but it typically condones these acts and in some cases fail to prevent it. While it stands there trumpeting a different message.
It leaves these children vulnerable and trusting these 'religious leaders'. I think the way to lessen it, is to not see these men/women as 'holy' instead see them as anyone else who is capable of causing harm and to take the necessary precautions as usual. Reality is, with or without religion, we will be in this nonsense.

Zanjan: " Will religion ever cleanse itself of its incredibly filthy laundry?"

This question isn't about religion - it's about mankind. Tell me, what outside of religion has spotless laundry?

Humanity has had a very, very short time on the evolutionary scale to sort itself out. For more than a million years, humans were so simple, so basic, there were no serious questions - it was hunt or be hunted. Life span was, at best, 30 years old and there were only a few thousand people on earth - lots of room.

For nearly a million years after, physical survival was still the main question. Any adaption for food, shelter, warmth, and a little medicine was mostly a local secret. There was no society - just small family groups. It wasn't until the population grew so large that tribes came into contact with each other and hunting ranges overlapped. Whomever had the most advanced technological edge became the rulers.

In evolutionary terms, humans were created in the last 2 hours of creation on the planet; and, the culture of human society didn't appear until the 15 minutes or so.

Enter the religions of God........this, on a different scale, was created in God days - one day of God is equal to a thousand years on earth.

Give us a break - religion cant evolve any faster than mankind will let it.

Comrade_:

"Give us a break - religion cant evolve any faster than mankind will let it."

Religion evolving? From what I see the spiritual text are still the same ones used today as hundreds of years ago. What is it that you're referring to when you say 'religion can't evolve'?

davesdatahut: Should one wish for a current example of why organized religion is, all too often, rank evil, see this:
http://www.leader-call.net/editionviewer/?Edition=259babda-036a-45af-ab0c-b5695c8da956&Section=0
Turn to page 5 for the owner's editorial calling people out for their religious objections to a front-page story about a same-sex wedding. He deserves all the praise he can get.

davesdatahut: That does cut to the essence of the issue - con men (and women) who get on the soapbox and claim the mantle of knowledge and some kind of connection to the big god itself. Listen to them, they say! And their truth will set you free. Just don't ask any tough questions and, by all means, don't ask them what they do when the lights go out.
So-called religious leaders are, too often, dressed-up carnival barkers very adept at political control and fund raising. When confronted with their failings, they are good at covering their asses, and not much else,

Zanjan: Comrade: "What is it that you're referring to when you say 'religion can't evolve'?"

The social teachings. Spiritual realities aren't the same thing - those never change and are timeless. Truths don't evolve.

The social teachings are ways to put those truths into community action to build a more peaceful, more understanding, more ethical world....in a world that doesn't want to learn.

There's only so much influence you can have on the illiterate, uneducated. There are challenges with exotic cultures and languages, and those beyond your borders.

There was a time when certain societal problems didn't exist, and a time when they did......a place where they existed, and a place where they were absent. There was a time when science didn't exist, so there weren't any questions about ethics there either. You get the drift.

You cant push anything better on a people until they're ready for it. Religious social teachings are adjusted to the capacities of the people; ergo, a new religion is carried forward by the first amongst men who can bear what is being asked of them.

Zanjan: I think it does no good by pointing the finger at other's flaws whilst ignoring your own. Negativity, cynicism and fault-finding isn't the path to understanding.

Not everybody is a sap, not every religious leader lacks power of discrimination, and no intelligent person will throw out the baby with the bath water.

One needs to differentiate between the person and the truth......between a religion and a human, and between a human and God.

If you love God but don't like what a religious community has become, you can switch religions - that's what they're there for, and why there's so many of them.

You have a choice to make the world a better place.....or sit and complain the others aren't doing it right.

davesdatahut: If most people decided, on their own, the level of contact they have, on their own. with whatever they decide is divine - and KEEP it to themselves - we would all be a lot better off. It's when the religious, and especially the self-defined good people who declare how they know god and they will tell you all about it, organize themselves into clubs that things get dangerous. That's when you get one group pitted against another and another and another, and all hell can break loose. Religion should be a personal thing, kept out of society as much as possible. It has caused far more evil than good because of the way religious sects break up into clubs that then view other clubs with disdain and suspicion.
Needless to say, I'll pass on that.

Zanjan: Your opinion that religion has done more harm than good is simply that - your opinion.

My opinion is that there's no element of truth in your opinion. There is nothing better than religion to teach the social graces...if there was, IT would be organized too.

Zanjan: Powerplant: " A person may very well have a direct contact with the divine on their own conditions if they so wishes."

That's utterly false. Nobody except a Manifestation of God has direct contact with the divine. Divine means "perfect"......do you know somebody who's perfect? No, we all have egos.

Anybody can talk to God but that's pretty much fruitless unless they also listen. Religion isn't a matter of holding to a set of beliefs - it's about the relationship one has with God. How long would any of your personal relationships last if they were a one-way street?

God doesn't operate on anyone's terms.

davesdatahut: Zanjan, at the risk of wasting even the time it takes to type these few sentences, i will note that past experience informs that a discussion with you is a one-way ride down wacky lane, at best. As tempting as it is to pursue that bit of intellectual amusement, I will take a pass and leave it others to have a go at your zealotry and wild-eyed demagoguery..
I am willing to lay my money down on the bet that says they will reach the same conclusion.

Zanjan: Dave, I aim to smash idols (lies and false information) - not opinions. When someone has an opinion, they're on safe ground if they say it's just their opinion. But if they assert it as the truth, I will meet them on that ground, especially if it's false.

Why do I do this? Well, I see the spreading of false information as 3 things : ignorance, prejudice, or hatred.........these things hurt people and other living creatures.

What do you think a guardian angel does all day, anyway? As a side note, they don't gamble.

davesdatahut: Prejudice...yes, our discussion about gay marriage made it clear where you stand in the pantheon of the prejudiced.
Next?

Zanjan: I'm, very prejudiced against evil - it's short-sighted, seedy, and selfish, you know.

By the way, your opinion is obviously clear only to yourself.

davesdatahut: One of the most evil and pernicious positions pushed by organized religion in the United States is about to fall - the opposition to gay marriage.
See this article today: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/us/politics/prominent-republicans-sign-brief-in-support-of-gay-marriage.html?hp&_r=0
This is worth posting in a separate thread, but it works here, too, for anyone who is chiming in.
If Republicans are now signing on, the Supreme Court will now have even less reason to go along with this outdated bit of hideously backward thinking and filthy laundry.
One down, many to go. Praise progress.

Zanjan: Someone is day dreaming again.

Our country has had gay marriage for many years now. That legalization hasn't improved family relations, changed people's opinions, or the Laws of God.

You'll find the same thing to be true and even more evident in the USA - just look how quickly they've been racing to give up owning guns!

davesdatahut: From the bigot's keyboard to your eyes, everyone. See above.

Zanjan: There's an old truth some people here probably don't know about because it comes from the Word of God:

He who makes a false accusation is the one guilty of that accusation.

davesdatahut: And he who makes a true accusation....is spreading truth! That would kinda go without saying.