The most abominable verses.

Serabi:
I recall as a child thinking it was a tad unfair that God struck down someone who was carrying his Ark with a bolt of lightning (2 Samuel 6:1-7 and 1 Chronicles 13:9-12). Surely his tripping and falling was an accident not punishable by death?

Something else that bares noting, is that if you believe God has written our lives and fates beforehand (it's also called Predestination), did Judas Iscariot have any choice in his betrayal of Jesus? Wasn't he predestined to be damned? Because some man had to be Jesus' betrayer, and one feels it is a bit much allocating this damnable act to any person.

Here's a list of bible verses that make one wonder just what sort of God Christians give their lives to in sincere patronage to what they call 'Holy'. If any readers have better examples (and I'm certain there must be) please be sure to add to the list. I know Christians will excuse the worst by saying 'Oh those are Old Testament" so I'll endeavour to try to quote liberally from the New.

1. God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him: 1st Samuel 6:19 in the King James Version: “And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men (50,070)”. Kill 50 000 men for looking at something?

2. You can kill a woman if she seizes a man's private parts without his permission: Deuteronomy 25:11-1: If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

3. Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)

4. Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again."
Exodus 21: 7-8

5. Divorce akin to debauchery: "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)

6. Cannibalism: "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." (II Kings 6:28-29)

7. If your genitals have been damaged, stay out of church: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)

8. Incest and getting drunk with dad is no problem if the world is running thin on suitable DNA donors: And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. [Genesis 19:31-36]

9. Looking at a woman with desire is akin to adultery: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)

10. But incestuous rape is cool: And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]

11. Pray in private, and if you do so in church, do so quietly: Matt 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others."

12. If you offend God he will kill you: "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also." (Genesis 38:7-10)

13. God smites women, children and often animals with equal gusto, he seems to equal evil and wrong doing by association, rather than by being guilty of the personal, individual act: "Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)

14. Rev 21: 8 "liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Eternal damnation for lying? In South Africa murderers and rapists often get released for good behavior, lying is politics.

And speaking of lying, the bible ends with one. It calls its message 'the good news' and concludes, "I am coming soon." Wrong on the 'soon' bit, and unless we've missed something, no one has come. But I get it, if 2000 years pass, soon after such a length of time must be VERY soon. If 10 000 years pass, soon must be very VERY soon.

Coffrey: The funny part about this is that God is apparently all over the place back then, smiting left and right, none would question his existence. So where did he go? Is he taking a 5,000 year vacation?

Zanjan: Serabi, the biblical verses you cited don’t contain any of the words you’re attempting to insert. Who told you those nonsense stories and why do you stick to rumour, even when you can read the real words on your own?

Do you think that pays fair justice to God, the writers, or the intelligence of others?

Know that God is the Most Just. Humans aren’t very much; their ignorance and failure to heed warnings blinds them from understanding. Language is not so much the stumbling block as is the lack of familiarity with history and the patterns of human behaviour – these patterns are timeless.

It’s clear you’ve only posted to air your hatred – not to search for any understanding, which you will never get as long as you harbour that rage. Therefore, I give you no assistance.

Coffrey: Okay, Zanjan in your infinite wisdom, go ahead and educate us on what those verses actually mean instead of saying "No, you just got it wrong".

Serabi:

I don't 'hate', I just feel nothing. How scared little children must be of such a god. It is like having the bogey-man live under the bed.

Explain the condoning of incest-

Lot: “Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.” Gen. 19:31-35


Let’s not even go into God’s killing everyone in Sodom/Gommorah (including fetuses, newborns, children and tweens), killing everyone on Earth with his genocidal flood, killing the Amalekites, Canaanites, and every tribe that opposed Israel down to the last man.

And let’s not get into why slavery and rape are unaddressed in the 10 commandments (4 deal with not dissing god, 0 deal with slavery); jesus himself said not that slavery was evil and unjust, but that slaveowners shouldn’t treat their slaves badly. Thanks, bro.

Women (since 1920) now vote in the US. Isn’t this against God’s law? They're supposed to be silent and submissive (1 Cor 14:34-35). Morals are unchanging.

No hyperintelligent, hyperloving God would have a part in any of this. A man or a tribe would, however. Isn’t it pretty obvious the bible was written by men, with human and not divine inspiration?

Serabi:

Not surprising....

Very few remarks from the zealots!

Serabi:

Gods Punishment in the Bible: Pregnant Women will be ripped open!


Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."


Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

TheDoctor394: I know no-one has posted on this thread lately, but I'd like to have a go at giving my take (as a Christian) on some of these verses, if anyone is interested.

Serabi:

Go ahead...

dave3974: well

TheDoctor394: Alright, I'll be back soon with a few thoughts.

TheDoctor394: Alright, Serabi, you’ve listed quite a few things here, and they could be put in a few different categories. I’ll just cover a bit of it for now.

We’ll look at one or two passages you’ve listed concerning the OT laws.
First of all, when trying to understand anything from the Bible (or any written transcripts at all), we need to remember context. The culture in which the Mosaic law came was incredibly barbaric. Sexual and violent crimes were the norm – it was an extremely depraved, sickening world, far worse than what we see today. Included in all this were the laws of the land, particular the Babylonian Law. Those who think the Bible has repugnant laws have presumably never seen what else was there at the time. Mutilation was common as a punishment ( to my knowledge, the law in Deut 25:111-12 is the only example of the Mosaic law suggesting mutilation for a punishment), involving such things as tongues been cut out and eyes gouged out for wrongdoing. What’s more, women were treated like dirt excessively, and there was a class system – the ‘lower’ you were, the chances were you got the worse punishment. Wikipedia has a page on it here - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_law, but there are various other writings you could find, particularly on the Code of Hammurabi.

Into all this came the Jews, and God’s set of laws, many which sound barbaric and horrifying to us now, but were actually ground breaking in the upstanding and respectful way they treated people.

God’s laws at the time were not ideal, and the Bible itself admits that. What God did was meet the Israelites “half way” if you like. It was a gradual move to what was best for all humanity (which would eventually be found in the New Testament). It’s rather like someone I know who works in Outside School Hours Care, where I’ve done much work. He is very, very big on encouraging children to be self-sufficient, feeding themselves, cleaning up after themselves, getting out and putting away, etc. To many children, this is a shock, so he doesn’t throw it on them all straight away. As he has put it to me, it is “a work in progress”. It can take weeks or months for the children to really get where he wants them to be. He knows that it would not work if he just made all these demands straight away.
Likewise, God came into this culture with a similar attitude.

I’ll refer to one of the passages you have here, that being Exodus 21:78 , the so-called “Sex slavery”, which is really nothing of the sort.

Such were conditions back then, that people often had to offer their children as servants to survive – and I mean decent, respectful work, not slaves in chains, or anything to do with sex. Again, this was not ideal, but how it was then. God actually helped the people with this law, and we need to look at the following verses, as well as the ones posted.
Exodus 21: 7-11: “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.”

A great book to read on this subject is Paul Copan’s “Is God A Moral Monster?”, and he writes here, “… when a father sells his daughter, he’s doing so out of economic desperation… which is more like contracted employment. In fact, the father is doing this out of concern for his family, and Israel’s laws provided a safety net for the very poorest. Voluntary selling was a matter of survival in harsh financial circumstances. Temporarily contracting out family members to employers, who also provided room and board, was the most suitable alternative during hard times.”
He went on to list three main factors that this law offered:
1. If the man rejects the servant woman as a wife, she is to be to be given her freedom (redeemed/brought back).
2. If his son wants to marry her, she’s to be taken in as a family member and treated as a daughter.
3. If the man marries another woman, the servant woman is to receive food, clothing and lodging.
This law is nothing about being anyone’s sex-slave. It’s actually meant to help the family, including the servant girl, to be treated with far greater respect than what was normal in those times, and if we read the passage through again closely, that should become quite clear.

I know long posts can be tedious to read, but I’ll just make a reference to Deut 25: 11-12, what has been called the “immodest lady wrestler” by certain people. It really does sound barbaric, although, as I said, it is the only example of mutilation for punishment in the Old Testament, compared with it being a regular feature in Babylonian Law.

This leads Copan to suggest that maybe it’s not even meaning an actual cutting off of the woman’s hand. He sites the Hebrew word here "kaph" as not necessarily meaning "hand". It can refer to the palm of the hand, or the arch of the foot. The word "yad", which is the usual term for "hand", is not used. "Kaph" can also be used for the pelvic area, and he suggests that the punishment could actually have been having to shave that area.

I’m not entirely convinced on that. However, however we read it, this passage reflects the seriousness of sexuality in God’s eyes. Why ever the woman grabbed her husband’s private parts (and one suspects it could have been quite a habit at that time, or why make such a law in the first place?), it was a disgraceful thing to do in God’s eyes, and deserved severe punishment.

Of all the laws in the OT, this is one of the ones that sits most uneasily with me; I’ve read two commentaries on it, and neither agree with Copan, instead pointing out the severity of such an action from the woman. I can’t offer much more a view on it at present, except that it seems odd to me that women seemed to have a habit of grabbing their husband’s manhood when helping them, and maybe this reflected a very wrong attitude that was prevalent at the time.

Anyway, sorry that this was so long. But if we’re going to respond to views on the Bible, we should do so thoughtfully and carefully, and I thought it would be best to just address a couple of things first.

Serabi:

Thank you for your input, it is very informative.

deuce916: "This leads Copan to suggest" isn't really proof of what happened is it. I could suggest otherwise couldn't I. In fact, I suggest the whole bible was written & inspired by humans, not by a god.

TheDoctor394: :-) Of course it's not proof. None of this is. We can all suggest things, and what I'm doing is sharing my thoughts, along with those of others.

Serabi:

@ The Doc - Your thoughts as well as the quotes on Copan's work is appreciated. I am an Atheist, always have been but religion has intrigued me from a very young age. Belief comes from within and I have never had it, that's it. What I really cannot understand is that religion has endured for so many years.

All religion, not just Christianity. I have mentioned this before but it is still relevant:-

If a person had a serious accident and his/her family gathers at the Intensive Care Unit, they pray for their loved one to survive. Two things can happen:

1) The patient survives - God is great...
2) The patient dies - it was Gods' will...

He can't do wrong! Everything is just accepted. The bible has such glaring inconsistencies, yet people just accept with blind faith. God is a terrible entity in the old testament! He supports child abuse, rape, incest, etc. the list just goes on and on.

TheDoctor394: Hello Serabi,

Thanks for your questions. And thank you for seeming to be a fairly decent atheist. :-| Most I've talked with are only interested in insults and scoffing at stuff that even hints at something different from their own views.

I'll say straight away that in no way, shape or form does God support child abuse, rape or incest, either in the OT or the NT. It is quite the opposite.

But I certainly understand your confusion concerning "Praise God" or "it's God's will", depending on what happens after our prayers. Funnily enough, it reminds me of a quote from someone from Depeche Mode who had a similar view, which led to their song “Blasphemous Rumours”.

Speaking personally, while I have never had someone close to me pass away, I have had my own heartaches, and there have been times when I have not been able to understand why things have gone wrong for me. Why have I prayed for something good, and something bad (in my view) has happened instead?

I don't have all the answers. I believe that if every Christian was honest, they would say that they've had moments when they just don't "get it".
But I'll look at the example you gave, that of praying for someone who's at death's door in hospital.

As you said, two things can happen. The person can live, or the person can die. Of course, it's natural to pray for the loved one to live, and also natural to be thrilled if that is what happens. But if the loved one dies, what are we to do? Condemn God for being a cruel, uncaring ogre? Many people would do that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I did the same.
But what are we expecting really? That our loved ones will never die? Everyone will live forever? That all we have to do is sent up a prayer, and everything is hunky dory every time? How would our attitudes be if that was the case? Wouldn’t we get careless, or cocky? As Christians, part of our growth includes hard times, and praying in those hard times, and praying about one thing can go for weeks or months, and it is how we can grow stronger. That has certainly been the case for me.

Certainly, it can sound incredibly fake to pray for something, not get it, and then say “Praise God! His will be done!” But, deep down, we need to remember that God is not always going to do what we want, and we should not be dismayed by that. As I said, the ramifications of Him indeed always jumping to what we want Him to do offer endless quandaries.

I don’t have all the answers to why God doesn’t always answer prayers the way we would like. And while I do not want to give the “His will be done” answer and make it sounds like some kind of cop-out, ultimately that is, and should be, the Christian view. That God can see the bigger picture, that “all things work together for good for those who serve Him”, and whatever disappointments we have, we need to trust that God will help us through what we are suffering, and will also keep us going as He continues to work out His plans.

That is why Christians do (in theory) praise Him for His will, if we do not always like it at the time.

CoIin: Hi Doctor. Long time no see

Just one question...

You say everything that happens is "God's will". You also say God is against child abuse, rape and incest.

Inasmuch as these events occur on a daily basis, this would appear to be an obvious contradiction, no matter how you try to squeeze human free will into the picture.

Is each episode of rape and child abuse God's will or not?

TheDoctor394: Hello Colin. :-)
Now that's a question I've long battled with, and I once posted it on a Christian message board. I asked - If God allows a bad thing to happen, does that mean He WANTS it to happen. If he doesn't want it to happen, why doesn't He stop it, since He's got the power? And if He doesn't stop it, doesn't that mean it's His will?

Perhaps not surprisingly (and sadly), no-one was very interested in dealing with it - I got more of a reaction of covering their ears (or eyes) and telling Doc not to ask silly questions.

I will say this - in God's eyes, it is certainly not ideal for anything bad to be part of the world. Incest, child abuse, etc is appalling to God. He hates it, and never approves of it; never, ever condones it. But He obviously allows it, since it happens.

So how do we define God's will? If I help a child, and then someone abuses that child, God loves one action and hates the next, but both happened, so are both His will? What does "will" mean?

I will say without doubt that God never, ever condones any sin, but I myself do sometimes struggle by what we mean when we talk of "God's will" in such circumstances.

Serabi:

Hi Doc: Thanks for your honest answer. I used to debate in the Religion forum regularly about 5 years ago. WireClub was different then... rather the people on Wire was different. I have respect for you and your religion, as with most other religions.

I have a serious problem with religious zealots AND atheist fanatics. I look at some of the things the atheists say and am embarrassed at the tone and condemnation. Atheist fanatics have elevated atheism to a 'self' religion of terrible proportions! I don't know how else to describe it.

I used to know the Bible well, not so much any more. Here are a few things that REALLY bothered me as a child and now just infuriate me.

1) Child abuse - God tests the faith of Abraham.

Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of The Lord it shall be provided.”

This is child abuse in its purest form. Imagine the emotional scarring on a young child after seeing his father lift a knife into the air to plunge into him. I have fostered numerous children and the ones with emotional scarring were much worse off than the ones who endured physical abuse.

2) Rape - Lot's daughters.


“Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).

Why wasn't Lot reprimanded for offering his daughters up to be raped?

An explanation on some Christian forums is that Lot committed a sin by sending his daughters out but, serving a forgiving God, that that sin would be forgiven. The other strange part is that the 'angels' were in the next verse referred to as 'men' not angels. Nothing is written about what befell the daughters.

3) Condone incest - Lot's daughters

“Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.” Gen. 19:31-35

This piece is written very matter-of-factly. Very neutral. Only Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, why 'no other men on earth'?

At this point you should know that I support the Ancient Aliens theory. There are at least some concrete evidence visible even today.

4) If all the righteous dead would rise and go to heaven, why yank Enoch and Elijah into a spaceship while they were still alive?

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the only two people God took to heaven without them dying. Genesis 5:24 tells us, "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Second Kings 2:11 tells us, "Suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Enoch is described as a man who "walked with God for 300 years" (Genesis 5:23). Elijah was perhaps the most powerful of God's prophets in the Old Testament. There are also prophecies of Elijah's return (Malachi 4:5-6).

5) Why didn't Noah squashed the 2 bloody mosquitoes on board the ark?

I'm being a bit facetious about Noah, but I have too many facts to the contrary to believe in a world flood.

Simon of Perea also claimed to be the son of God. He performed miracles and died in battle while burning Herod's holiday palace down.

If David Copperfield and Dynamo performed their 'Magic" acts in those days, folk would have followed them around as well.

CoIin: @ Doctor

Thanks. Yeah, if "God's will" is defined as "everything that happens", it would be seem to be a concept entirely devoid of meaning, don't you think?

It's like attributing everything that happens to fate, or " happens" or "the will of Elvis"

To be meaningful, there would have to be some way of distinguishing that which is God's will from that which is not. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Peace and love

P.S. Or consider the scientist who when asked for the cause of any particular phenomenon replies "The Big Bang caused it". True in a sense, but entirely unhelpful.

Serabi:

PS: My son comes to me and asks whether he can do something and I tell him he has free will and can decide for himself. He then goes out and do something which I do not agree with, should I banish him from my house? I told him he has free will. Why punish him for using it?

TheDoctor394: Alrighty…
To start with, something we need to remember about the Old Testament is a rule-of-thumb - It always says what happened, but not always what SHOULD have happened. Yes, it does say things matter-of-factly sometimes, but that does not mean God is fine with them. The Bible does not always show any condemnation for things that people did wrong, but we know are wrong, and with which God would have been displeased. We have Lot’s actions at Sodom (which reflected the culture’s horrible view of women at the time), his daughters’ actions later, and I could also add something like Abraham twice lying about his wife Sarah, saying she was his sister. The Bible never says God was unhappy with what Abraham did, but we know he still would have been, since the Bible elsewhere tells us that God views lying as a sin. We can be assured the actions were deplorable in God’s eyes, and He would have taken note of them all, even if we’re not always told that.

As for why the angels were first called “angels” and then “men"… That’s an interesting one. The writer did start calling them “men” after the Sodom charmers did, so maybe he just took it from there. Angels tend to come across looking like normal people, so maybe “men” and “angels” could be used fairly interchangeably back then.

The testing of Abraham is one of the most controversial parts of the whole Bible, and I can understand why many people would be shocked by it. In fact, I tend to see more discussion about how Abraham would have felt during it all, than Isaac, and it’s a fair point. What must the poor kid have gone through emotionally?
If we look at Abraham first, it is apparent that he did not believe that Isaac would die. Either God would stop him from performing the sacrifice, or He would bring Isaac back to life afterwards – more likely he would have believed the former, I think. We know that because Abraham had grown in his faith a lot by then, and he had been told that he would have many descendants through Isaac. Also, before he takes Isaac away, he says to his servants “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

WE will come back to you. It’s obvious Abraham expected Isaac to be alive and with him when he came back. We could then consider that Abraham discussed this with Isaac beforehand (or during). Maybe Isaac’s faith itself was strong during this situation. While nervous, maybe Isaac was himself mature enough to believe that he would not die, as God had to keep His promise, and he also knew God just didn’t like this sort of thing.

These are assumptions, I know. But I would have thought reasonable ones. We simply don’t know how much Abraham and Isaac would have prayed to God about this, or what they would have said to each other (did even Sarah know about it?). The Bible isn’t an in depth novel of every word spoken and every action taken. It often jumps from one act to the next, but the people involved did not do that. They lived every minute of their lives, and we can only sometimes guess at what they did and said which we do now know about.

In regards to Elijah and Enoch, it is indeed strange that they got out of death. I really have no idea why they in particular were spared it. However, that hardly means they had delightful lives. While we really know nothing of Enoch, Elijah had a pretty rough time of it, including being hunted down by Jezebel for his victory over the prophets of Baal. Elijah got depressed to the point where he was suicidal, so he certainly didn’t have it easy. And we could look at certain other people who seemed to die “peacefully”, like Moses and Samuel, so the argument here would be a far wider one – why do someone people get it worse than others? I do not know, except that we’re all different, and also have different levels of tolerance, so maybe our experiences don’t differ as much as we think.

And why didn’t Noah squash the mosquitoes? I wish he’d done the same to big, brown grasshoppers. I hate them. :-| Again, I don’t know why God created some things, and we have to put up with them now. But again, God has His reasons, He has his ways. We simply cannot be expected to understand them all. If we did, then He wouldn’t be much of a God.

I'll leave this post as is, and add one more about free will in a moment.

TheDoctor394: Alright, free will...

I have never had children, but I have worked in child care for over fifteen years, so I am very familiar with overseeing children, punishing, etc.

When I'm in charge of a group of children, there are rules to be obeyed. Ideally, these children know the rules. They are set out clearly, therefore there really are few excuses for them to be disobeyed.

Generally speaking, I then leave it there and get on with the programme, doing activities, etc. I don't hound every child at every moment, ear-bashing them and telling them what is right and wrong. I like them to be able to decide for themselves how they act during the day. It is how they mature and learn. It can be wonderful to see a child making descisions throughout their day, including moral ones - should I do that, or shouldn't I? What's right? They then either take the right action, or the wrong one.

They have had free choice in what they do, but if they pick the wrong one (for instance, going into the Craft Room without asking - a common crime at my last job), I still have to reprimand them. They need to be reminded that they did the wrong thing. It is a measure of our freedom that we can decide on various actions, but that does not mean the wrong action should be justified on the basis that we had the freedom to do it.

Free will/freedom of choice is something that makes us wonderfully human. It gives us personalities, it makes us alive. But that does not excuse wrong-doing. We are fully capable of making the right decisions, so there still needs to be a reprimand when we make the wrong ones.

Serabi:

Thank you for your views. If seems as though there are lots of maybe's and unanswered questions in your mind, yet your faith is strong... Why?

Serabi:

What about Lot sending his daughters out? What happened to them. How is the incest viewed by a believer such as yourself?