The 10 commandments, what would you alter? (Page 2)

Zanjan: Also very important symptoms -> excessive sleep and fatigue. There aren't too many symptoms; you only need to have 2 simultaneously.

One type of depression is the result of enduring severe, untreatable chronic physical pain - battling it every day with no cure in sight is very draining. Psychological pain can follow the same, intractable path.

"some go to great lengths to disguise their depression from everyone, including themselves"

If they attempt to disguise their depression, that means they're fully aware it exists. That could be an effort to cheer themselves up, since the 'fake it til ya make' it dynamic does work fairly often.

As for the hedonistic bunch, they know how hard it is to live with the secrets of their actions - depression is the natural outcome. Those, I'd be more concerned about because they're susceptable to suicidal thoughts.

"it is only with long consultation with a trained counsellor that the root cause can be properly identified."

Knowing the cause isn't always necessary - knowing the cure certainly is. You'd better have that handy if you're going to go into somebody's head, poking around; some things are better left buried.

Thankfully, emotional and spiritual pain is much easier to alleviate but as with any other disorder, it's up to the patient to accept the remedy and take the medicine.

Aura: Okay, someone's definitions may be a little off and since I'm also translating it could very well be me. But as far as I know 'hedonistic' means 'living your life in pursuit of pleasure'

Really pursuing a life of pleasure will make you depressed? Yeah in the context Geoff brought up, they are depressed, but the depression came before the behavior, that was the point.

But if you chose to be a hedonist, I don't see why your actions would be secret.

Either my definition of pleasure is too broad or yours is too narrow.

Nathaniel Nirvana: From the original ones at least half, I think they make for a better, if idealised, world....like not murdering, lieing, stealing,..
the ones about God & idols I do without

CoIin: @ Nath

Well, you might think "Thou shalt not kill" is about as clear as it's possible to be, but alas, things are never that simple.

What does "don't kill" actually entail? Never kill a human being? (and if so, why does God do it ad nauseum in the Bible? ) Are we allowed to kill in self-defence? What about animals? Can we kill cows? Mosquitos? And what if we are invaded by belligerent s?

So then the process of interpretation begins. And as we all know, "my" interpretation is the only correct one.

CoIin: I would argue that Divine Command theory is the very antithesis of morality.

To be sure, if you're given advice by an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being, you'd do well to listen. But wouldn't you want to confirm that the source is indeed this putative being and not, say, Satan? Or your own imagination?

Well, how can we tell? One recourse would be to refer to an independent theory of ethics. If your best assessment suggests that the advice/command is unethical, you have inadequate justification for believing it came from an all-benevolent being.

We might pause here and consider the case of Abraham and "the binding of Isaac" (How's that for a euphemism? "binding" = attempted murder). It seems to me that, by not questioning the command, Abraham FAILED the test rather than passing. "But I was only following orders" is the most pathetic of all excuses for perpetrating an atrocity.

But now, if we have an independent standard of ethics, gods would appear to be redundant for morality. Plato pointed this out over two millennia ago ( "Euthyphro's dilemma" ), but theists don't seem to get the message.

The dilemma goes roughly like this....

Do the gods command it because it's good? Or is it good because the gods command it?

If it's the former, then the gods themselves are subordinate to a logically anterior standard of right and wrong. In that case, why don't we just cut out the middle man and access this standard ourselves?

If it's the latter, then "good" is simply and arbitrarily what the gods command. Good is nothing more than the whim and caprice of a divine dictator. Moreover, if you embrace this horn of the dilemma, it becomes meaningless to call God "good".

Nathaniel Nirvana: I think the commandments etc are a good starting point for morality but not enough in themselves
if I had one I reckon it would be something along the lines of 'to thine own self be true' (who said that ?idk) or like Crowley's ' do what is thou will '
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-highly-religious-people-compassion-non-believers.html

Nathaniel Nirvana: ^^ that was one article about the study done last May on the differences of morality of 'religious' ppl compared to 'atheists/agnostics'.....they found the latter to have more compassion/empathy

CoIin: Well, don't you think we can come up with better than - don't work on Sundays; if you do, you must be stoned to death?

Nathaniel Nirvana: I think the good God gods thing is one & the same (or meant to be) like God IS the good & the good is God.....kinda like the word is God & God is the word I suppose

CoIin: If God is identical with "the Good", then he can have no other properties. (Leibniz' law of identity)

Isn't he supposed to do other stuff? Like create universes?

Aura: Hold it hold it,

You can't really bring murder or killing into the 'does he command good things' question, because if we go by the christian god, he doesn't see end of life the same we do. To us, it is a loss. To him, it's a soul coming home. (or not, but lets assume the dead go to heaven).

Now the whole reason he told us not to kill, if you buy into the whole story, is because the has a plan and we all are part of it and if we go around taking people out of their roles randomly it can get annoying to have the plan work. And we could do that, free will remember. Then he'd have to start going with the miracles again and all that....history shows it has mixed results.

Nathaniel Nirvana: Like with a lot of the Bible stuff it can make sense on a practical level but zealots take it & run with it.......or rather stone ppl becuz of it.........not working sundays...or rather not working oneday of the week makes sense as ppl need a break/rest.......same as a lot of the do not this and that can be seen from a health perspective

Nathaniel Nirvana: yeah, like fulfilling your destiny, all part of Gods plan & freewill death messes up that piece of the puzzle.....God gets peed off & sends the messers to Hell....lol

Nathaniel Nirvana: creation is perhaps all part of the 'good'....its cosmos which is all good

CoIin: How would it look if it was "bad"?

Nathaniel Nirvana: chaos ~ dark matter ........like the image of Hell.......firey unformed radiation (imo)

CoIin: @ CoffeeMonster - "Now the whole reason he told us not to kill, if you buy into the whole story, is because the has a plan and we all are part of it and if we go around taking people out of their roles randomly it can get annoying to have the plan work. And we could do that, free will remember."

You mean we can surprise God?

I thought he knew everything?

Aura: hm, far as I know, new testament was based on Hebrew texts and they actually name god in 3 different stages, can't remember exactly and right now i don't feel like googling, but it translated to something like 'god' 'god the creator' and 'god the father' so yeah Colin, god does change his identity.

CoIin: God changes his personality in the Bible more times than my ex-wife

Aura: Oh I'm sure he knows everything as a God figure, however as I read the bible I get this overwhelming sense he doesn't quite get us. Kind of like me not getting why my 22 month old boy does the things he does.

CoIin: @ Nath "chaos ~ dark matter ........like the image of Hell.......firey unformed radiation (imo) "

Well, I think the scientist dudes tell us exactly that. 96% (I think) of the universe is composed of dark matter and dark energy

Nathaniel Nirvana: the remainder (4%) think is seepage......I believe its like that yin/yan picture...... you know the black & white thing with the dot of the opposite colour in each

Geoff: Sorry to go back almost an entire page to address a point:

Zanjan:
"some go to great lengths to disguise their depression from everyone, including themselves"

If they attempt to disguise their depression, that means they're fully aware it exists.

--
Not necessarily, at least not on a conscious level. Denial is a powerful thing, almost as powerful as the placebo effect.

This entire forum being a case in point.
--

"it is only with long consultation with a trained counsellor that the root cause can be properly identified."

Knowing the cause isn't always necessary - knowing the cure certainly is.


--
My point was finding the root cause of the >behaviour< not of the depression.

orkanen: Zanjan: You missed again. The 10 commandments of the Bible are not in question here. These are Solon's 10 commandments, a list written before those of the Bible. But since you brought them up, I find some of the Bible commandments petty, others redundant.

The preface, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." show, you know, a lie. Remember the thing I keep telling you about, the same thing you continuously keep doing? The Egyptians didn't hold slaves. Yes, I still reject the god concept.
"Thou shalt not have other gods before me" tells me that there are other equal gods around, equally imaginary. Keep in mind I still reject the god concept, in case you're considering trying to throw cheap and failed shots at me. And for your previous efforts, I'd ask for my money back if I were you, they're all cheap, as well as a complete waste of time.
I could go on and on here, but you already deny the picture. Women were at the time considered property, and were thus exempt from the 7th day rest.

I'm now done with the Bible, I suggest we return to the topic.