Does God make Mistakes? (Page 4)

StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

Much of the misery on Earth has absolutely nothing to do with "free will," "our prerogative to do right or wrong," or "our deeds." You say:

"God does not make Mistakes."

A baby is born with a horrible congenital defect that makes its short life nothing but excruciating pain and misery, both for the baby itself, and for those that love that innocent child ...

An earthquake causes devastation, indiscriminately killing the devout and the infidel, the good and the evil ...

Please explain why God would do things like that.

12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: And Certainly We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to those who are patient. Who, when afflicted with calamity say "Truly! to Allah we belong and truly to Him we shall return" (Quran Ch: 2 Verses 155-156).

These kind of events are all but test from God..
12 years ago Report
0
StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

Okay ...

So ... let's see if I understand ...

God creates incredible misery to multitudes of people as a "test" to see if we will continue to worship God after God has done that.

If a human being did that, we would consider that human being as being sick and perverted.

So why isn't God sick and perverted for doing that?



12 years ago Report
0
CoIin
CoIin: God's in a win-win situation

Scenario 1 - There is a fire. Jones (religious nut) escapes unharmed.
...................Jones - "Praise be to God. He saved me"

Scenario 2 - There is a fire. Jones gets badly burned, but survives.
..................Jones - "Praise be to God. He saved me"

Scenario 3 - There is a fire. Jones is burned to a crisp. And a few children too.
.................religious nuts - "It's all part of God's plan"

12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: The "test" here is dealing with two types of people.. the first is those who forget God, that God might give them some calamities or trials that they may find their way back to their Lord. Because the most probable thing that a man could do when afflicted with such calamities is to invoke God for help, whether intentionally or unintentionally. The second is those who already believing in God, that when calamity befall on them, they will never blame or question God for such. But instead they will hold unto their faith that whatever comes, it is a decree from their Lord and the hope for God's mercy is always there.. That even if they are unfortunate in this worldly life, their hope of being fortunate will be given to them in the next life.

12 years ago Report
0
CoIin
CoIin: Ah, the next life.....

Well, let's forget all about my family that you killed and the torture you put me through. After all, a bet must be settled. - Job (a man of faith)
12 years ago Report
0
StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

vernch says:
"... even if they are unfortunate in this worldly life, their hope of being fortunate will be given to them in the next life."

By that logic, we shouldn't worry about EVIL PEOPLE causing misery and injustice. After all, those who are "unfortunate in this worldly life" will, if they are deserving, have fortune bestowed to them in the "next life" by God, and of course, God will deal with the EVIL PEOPLE as well.

Your point of view is that compared to the "next life," what happens in this life is inconsequential. As long as you're going to be "fortunate" with God and the "next life," that's all that matters.

I'd disagree.

So let me stop parsing words here, stop pussyfooting around with this "intellectual" discussion, and say what is plainly obvious:

Dude, you and your religion are fucked up.

(Edited by StuckInTheSixties)
12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: One more appalause for StuckInSixties.

StackIn said:

"God does not make Mistakes."

A baby is born with a horrible congenital defect that makes its short life nothing but excruciating pain and misery, both for the baby itself, and for those that love that innocent child ...

An earthquake causes devastation, indiscriminately killing the devout and the infidel, the good and the evil ...

Please explain why God would do things like that.

Vernch said:

And Certainly We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to those who are patient. Who, when afflicted with calamity say "Truly! to Allah we belong and truly to Him we shall return" (Quran Ch: 2 Verses 155-156).

These kind of events are all but test from God..

Stuck replies:

So let me stop parsing words here, stop pussyfooting around with this "intellectual" discussion, and say what is plainly obvious:

Dude, you and your religion are fucked up.



Slasian Says:

When you guys are saying 'God' which one are you precisely referring? Because the God I know has got nothing to do with earth quacks or sufferings of Babies so which God is on the table here?

Mostly what people find in the western religions (it includes Islam also) is the version of the true God or some part of its nature mingled with the strong influence of the Jewish culture, norm and attitude (since the Judaism is the mother of Christianity, Islam, Jehovah and the rest similar western religions)

Here one should also note the influence of Buddhism, which is mostly about suffering and passing through some kind of test, a matrix of eternal reborn and karma, well it is also like the rest religion only got the vestige of God. So before I talk about the God I wanne know which God are you talking about? those Gods in religious books or the creator of all?

Edit= More applause.......... for
(Edited by slasian)
12 years ago Report
0
StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

Um ... well ...

Vernch is referring (specifically) to Allah. The name is right there in his post, which you copy/pasted. And I, of course, in reply to Vernch, am also referring to Allah ... or at least the interpretation of Allah that Vernch is referring to.

12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: Lets be honest here even Buddha and Christ fit to the trap set by you and Cambel, the question is which God do you think made mistakes? Like I said the God you find in many religion is some distorted image of the creator.

The real argument is here:

First if you think that God can make a mistake you are either acknowledging the existence of God or you are mocking.

Second, you are an atheist and the question is just a rhetorical question to tackle some fanatic religious individual, yet unless you state which God is making this mistakes you couldn't proof your point. Well in some books earth quacks and disease are attributed to God and some they are not. So for you to proof that God doesn't exist because he made a mistake is invalid because one you doesn't state which God is in question here and two every religion defines the nature of God in different ways and for some there could be a God who er like every one here.

Hence,forget the mocking part because nothing informative could come out of it and lets talk about the God you are referring to, regarding the two points as an atheist or as a person who recognized its existence. Tell us what kind of God it is (I mean lets have the foundation)
12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: Peace!

The topic here was "Does God Make Mistakes?" and the criteria for such is that if God does not commit mistakes, then why are such sufferings or calamities are being allowed by God? Which falls to a category of God being unjust.. Some Atheist became an atheist because they don't believe in God the creator, rather they believe that everything was created through science. And that falls into another category. And Some are becoming Atheist just because they do not believe in the existence of God which is so general.

So whichever category an Atheist touched upon from the given above, Inshaa Allah (if Allah wills), I will be giving an explanation based on the direct subject pointed out. In which clarifications will be brought up from the same Concept of God that we Muslims knew.. And that is Allah.
12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: So lets here it from StackinSitiex and his fellows first.




** Vernch you should really be prepared because Stack is a tricky man and I for one agreed with most of the points here, if you think that God/Allah allows little children to suffer, just for the sake of test then it would make him unjust, because, assuming the test is necessary, the subject in test could suffer in his own term and torturing some one else by logic is bullying and even if we agreed upon it and call it by torturing innocent babies Allah is testing his subject then what about the right of the baby, does it mean that Allah created that baby for the sole purpose of torture? Will this nature goes with the saying of Qur’an, Irahman Irahim? Because If you even think that those babies and their inborn sickness which torment them all their life is the work of Allah you are indirect conflict with the Qur’an for it says; Allah will not punish children for their parents sin, I know this verse and you know this verse. For now lets be patient wait for StackInSixtie’s reply, because this topic could really be interesting if we had a foundation ground to argue about.

StackInSixiteis throw your dice.
(Edited by slasian)
12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: We are not here to compete. We are here to share.. Should Mr. Stack throw something which is beyond my capacity to meet, well I am not a scholar of Islamic studies and the best thing I could do is to approach those who know.. That's it..
12 years ago Report
0
One Bar
One Bar: That you're actually debating the above just beggars belief. If the big G exists then s/he's a shit - anyone who can't realise this is a liar or a fool.
12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: To vernch, sometimes you had to learn some folks here they just know how to open their mouth. Now come on we are not competing and what happened to your words, "So whichever category an Atheist touched upon from the given above, Inshaa Allah (if Allah wills), I will be giving an explanation based on the direct subject pointed out" and If you do not want to have the foundations to be set here then answer to my question about Allah, his word and your claim that he tortured them to test us. How can he do it after he clearly said I will not punish children for their parents sin? Even a christian had a better ground on this particular point because the bible said I will punish children for their parents sin but Allah doesn't and what is your answer?
12 years ago Report
0
lavendar_star
lavendar_star: OK, I'm getting confused are Allah and the Christian/Jews God the same supernatural being but just interrupted by different groups and books. Anyway, for me there is no God/Allah most probably if not at all exist. We suffer for the faults of humans nothing else, if we take the premise that God/Allah do exist then how is suffering a test its just suffering for whatever reason, that is a Wicked God if that is the case.
12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: Here is my reply..
Then there must be a contradicting in the bible, because in one place in the bible, it says (I am quoting) "every soul shall taste death, and the father will not bear the sin of the son, neither the son shall bear the sin of the father.....".. And from their teachings, original sin is there which is completely denied in Islam faith.

Trials as we believe are given to people as a test. Both to the believers and non believers. For the believers, it is a trial of their faith in Allah that whatever befalls on them when it subsides, there is a great reward for them mostly in the next life for not shrinking. And for those who disbelieves or let us say forgotten His existence, it is His mean to call back people to belief, that when calamities or struggle befalls them, they will invoke Allah's help and it is happening in reality though not everyone ends up with the same. And for those children who were afflicted or affected, we believe that children are all born innocent and pure and sinless until they reach the age of adolescent in which they can differ right from wrong. In that case then they will be held accountable for their deeds. But if these children are still in the stage of innocence, no reckoning will be done to them and surely the mercy of Allah will be upon them, if not here then in the next life which we believe will exist.
12 years ago Report
0
CoIin
CoIin: When I was a god, I never tested my creatures by torturing them. I was always nice to them. How's that for a novel concept?
12 years ago Report
0
lavendar_star
lavendar_star: So wait a minute, that doesn't make sense, people suffer as a test so they get it good in next life, so there's going to be alot of people having good life in the afterlife,- thats madness. As for people who forget that God/Allah doesn't exist its not forgetting its just not believing and live the life you have now here on earth.

If I m going to suffer an illness Im calling the doctor not God or Allah and I think its poor excuse for why people are suffering especially babies and children it resolves people of consequences of their actions. It also lets people of for their wickedness for the here and now and that what people should be concentrating on, not some afterlife where there's no proof off.
12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: Please let me share the touch stone of the concept of God in Islam.. If anyone or anything befits this criteria, then We Muslims have nothing to argue that he or it is a god..

Quran Ch 112 Verses 1-4

1. Qul: Huwalllahu Ahad
"Say" He is Allah the One.
2. Allahusamad
"The self sufficient Master (He neither eats nor drinks)
3. Lam Yalid Wa Lam Yulad
"He begets not nor is He begotten"
4. Wa Lam Yakul Lahu Kufuwan Ahad
" And there is none like unto thee"
12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: @vernch What kind of answer is it?

I said In the Bible the chrisian God said I will punish children for their parents sin and hence if a Christian said God torment those babies for a test it doesn’t contradict and it will not be a mistake in its doctrinal sense, though it is for me and for many other here.

I said yet in the Quran God said I will not punish babies for their parents sin hence what is your answer about your claime as a Muslim that Allah torment innocent babies for the sake of a test?

If you are trying to dodge it here is my privous post again.

If you do not want to have the foundations to be set here then answer to my question about Allah, his word and your claim that he tortured them to test us. How can he do it after he clearly said I will not punish children for their parents’ sin? Even a Christian had a better ground on this particular point because the bible said I will punish children for their parents’ sin but Allah doesn't and what is your answer? Then what about the right of the baby, does it mean that Allah created that baby for the sole purpose of torture? And will it be logical to punish some one for the sake of others? How could this go with the Irahman Irahim thing? Alike the Christian God the Muslim God had made it clear that children are free from original sin, yet when you say those babies born with genetic diseases are the work of Allah and he deliberately created them to test the rest wouldn’t it mean that it is a mistake? Please don’t be a smart bird and try to wistle the wrong song I did say the above things and not what you had posted in your opening paragraph
(Edited by slasian)
12 years ago Report
0
vernch
vernch: Its a matter of faith, because even science cannot deal with what we believe about next life.. And let us put it this way, suppose an Atheist is right that there is no God and there is no life after death, when he dies, its fine right because he is right that there will be no reckoning or rewarding after this life? He lost nothing right? And we believers also are not loosing anything or earning anything. But How if what we believe is true? That there will be reckoning and rewarding after this life, what the Atheist have prepared for it?
12 years ago Report
0
lavendar_star
lavendar_star: he or it so God couldnt be a woman then.

Personally that doesnt help me, on what God/Allah is "why go through the whole process of evolution for all living beings on this planet, and is God dead then? and where did God come from in the first place? Why didn't humans know of God until couple of thousands of years ago? For me if God has always been where is it, what's is it doing, These questions I asked in another post, but all books of religion come from a man or men, end of story for me.
12 years ago Report
0
CoIin
CoIin: We have about 600 gods here in Taiwan at last count. Anyone want one? There are a few bad eggs, but most of them are quite nice. No torturers among them as far as I know.
12 years ago Report
0
slasian
slasian: Hey vernch answer it properly? Answer it in accord with my true question please?
12 years ago Report
0