A moral universe?

Lucifera
Lucifera: I have always been amazed by how some people think that the universe is controlled by a morally benevolent entity, when good and bad luck seem to be distributed according to utterly random principles, where people with a decent and selfless behaviour aren't rewarded at all compared to those that resort to greed, fraud and theft. This is just one of many reasons why I reject the idea of an almighty power…
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NightFlyer
NightFlyer: Sorry, but I'm not too concerned about the morality of the universe...

What worries me, however, is all the religious groups claiming that "God is on our side" and "everybody else is worshiping the devil". Such people are naturally inclined to commit horrible atrocities and then claim that "it was God's will", while at the same time express a genuine surprise over having to be held responsible of such crimes against their fellow human beings. There is no way that we can protect ourselves against such disturbed minds.
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Harlet
Harlet: i rock and roll a we bit on these topic's,........ .....picture if you will this planet having a aura.......that arua substance would be declaring in the abstract,belongs too the theocracy of the supernatural,owner of "THE CROWN" sometimes fondly referred too as GOD,yet mostly not with any fondness and is not the personal name of "THE CROWN" owner,.............now picture as you focus in upon this planet you see coming into view, another aura,which tells you, this entire planet was fore sworn too be held under the precepts of a democracy........democracy,the peolpe,to cut and divide...... how do you divide the people with having, religion....too gather logic........................
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youllthinkyourehappy
youllthinkyourehappy: I agree on that everything moral is and would be there just because of common sense instead of a mythical figure. As for the "highly rewarded sinners"...The fact, that they do seem to have better luck raises the question: why do we see their lifestyles as the wrong ones if they obviously work. Because...of the the storybook that has a talking snake in it? That's silly, isn't it.

Though i believe that there is a greater power...but that can all be explained by physics and the fact that we, humans...are so small compared to other objects that have energetic and magnetic fields and we consist of molecules.
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Harlet
Harlet: were rocking and rolling.....in our own personal style, right, to explain ourselves and our individual thinks...............pubically and socially........... willingly and openly...........................We are all led too believe,that we know a momemt or two in our existences where we will have met "THE CROWNS" owner......................SO says "THE CROWN",there will be no telling it's owner what it can and not say too us,there will no winning your case with you didn't know any better,or with you wanted too be cool with aggroance,or with how good your reputation amongst the masses felt by being rude and worse with haughty audaciousness...........................we will either willingly or we will be forced into submission.............................when called too answer for ourselves,when called into the living supernatural realm,and high grounds..........................of "THE CROWNS" very real and alive and living supernatural realites........................................
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Harlet
Harlet: the snake represents "SINE" esse too be, and is also a symbol used to designate all medical science.....................................
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Harlet
Harlet: here.............. if i was speaking too you verbally with sound, you have heard me pronounce sine, sounding like sin.......and i might have heard you ask in your voice what does sign mean..........................
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Harlet
Harlet: reverance.......... being reverent.................... have nothing too do with worshipping.............................. or worship.............it is telling us too mind our minds thoughts hearts, very breath and essence of being manners.........it is telling us,when living,too mind them...................................it is not telling us.............. too not enjoy open sx# and sexuality, having many lovers or a gender specfic s#w..................it is asking us too be honest with who we have sx$ with, too keep up our hygiene,blah blah.............there is no reverence being practiced on highways and byways, it's all about wtf attitudes......................
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Harlet
Harlet: be honest.......when out driving how many times a times a day do your run into driving space cadets, or flipping you the bird take that *itch.as they fly by..................................crashing and burning is a not a natural death, and is a death we face ownership having died from................................and causing deaths from being irrepsonible while driving......................
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youllthinkyourehappy
youllthinkyourehappy: Nice to see someone so passionate about something. Strangely personal defense though. But never mind that. Thank you for specifying that the terms were abstract.. ?
And sorry,( if i obviously some how have offended you so deeply) but just as you have your own thoughts, i have mine and i just expressed them. Didn't expect people to agree with me, but i didn't expect an attack either. I wrote what I thought about the first post and the containing problem. And whatever symbols anyone uses, that doesn't make it reasonable to buy into religion when we have reasonable explanations for most of the "miracles" and enough common sense to frown upon killing and such.

I like the idea of humans being very insignificant though.
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kritz0
kritz0: You can actually understand her?
The broken English is hurting my mind.
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Point5andahalf
Point5andahalf: I believe the God/higher power is interested in the wellbeing of life on Earth, it's up to us individuals to follow or reject the principles of living in peace.
The higher power is what is driving people to be more selfless because that is the only way for the people to live in peace.

Imagine if EVERYONE was selfish and greedy, society would crumble I imagine.
But what if everyone was selfless and considerate, a utopia might be possible.
Successful society relies on cooperation, not competition.

To quote (paraphrase) a bible passage, "The faithful people of the past suffered because they could see something better for us."
Hebrews 11:39,40
All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.
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oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: *nods in agreement
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Sicrano
Sicrano: I can agree to most of this, too, as long as we are allowed to approximate our relationship to God on an individual basis. As soon as a religion shows its ugly head and dictates the basics of our worship, the race is run and we fall victim to something that was never intended. Man has created religions and the way I see it, they bring more suffering than happiness.
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youllthinkyourehappy
youllthinkyourehappy: I believe that everything is always in a balance on the greater scale. The energy, that runs us, and the planets and molecules, and impulses in our brains is the same- everything around us consists of matter particles and emptiness. And everything else is the energy that holds everything together and causes movement. I dear to imagine, that the universe's energy is one unchanging amount of energy, that just locates differently according to it's needs.

Greediness is a desire that has elevated from our basic need of supplying ourselves with essentials. And everyone IS selfish. It is impossible to be unselfish on the most basic levels- while i'm writing this post i do what i have chosen to do ignoring the world around me.

Giving in to ones desires and acting on them IS ..selfishness. It doesn't have to be harmful to anyone else in a direct matter for this behavior to be selfishness.
If living beings weren't selfish, they would die faster than you can say "selfishness".

As for the greediness...before humans got starstruck and started living as the planet's rulers, when nature grew out of nature and there was a biological balance then there was no one to define how much is one allowed to eat or collect or whatever. But does that mean that greediness didn't exist?
No, it means that humans hadn't created a negative term to forcefully make people believe that some things are good and some things aren't.

Society would crumble..society is a bunch of mammals with one too many made-up rules so we can justify our destructive behavior by calling ourselves intelligent. As if the artificial tools that we have created, that have caused us to lose our natural senses, that could be much more practical in a fair, biologically balanced world. So who's to say what's really wiser- an ability to hear and feel everything around you for miles or a bunch of made-up stories, facts, equations and symbols?

The basic law of nature is that only the strongest survive, it's called the natural selection.


I agree with the last post. Everyone is emotionally different and many aren't strong enough to function without believing in something beyond their own control, that gives many the comfort and the sense of lacking obligations, they need. So i do believe, that it is essential for people to believe in whatever they want so that humankind could stay diverse.
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oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: In context with the opening post, I believe there has to be a creator. If one doesn't accept this, then were left with a simple "i don't know".

Our forefathers and their forefathers all believed/searched for God in some way. In rationality, our ancestors were that much closer to the 'beginning' of existence.. therefore i would think that they would have a more accurate understanding of our origin.

On top of this, could we think that this vast universe, the complexity of it all, is just floating around with nobody in charge? That it all just.. happens to be getting by?
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youllthinkyourehappy
youllthinkyourehappy: Actually today's science has a pretty good theory, that is actually based on real-life facts and physical laws instead of a random story of a moral guy.
Our forefathers couldn't explain so much at the time, so the fear of the unknown drove them to find simple explanations, that would seem believable so that they could feel the comfort of false knowledge.
We don't believe that the earth is flat though..or...do we?

It's only in the minds of humans, that someone has to dominate and others should follow...A strange coincidence though, that the species that rules the rest of the world only needed to invent God?
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MrSteveA67
MrSteveA67: Shouldn't it be true that if someone was acting selflessly then they're expecting no benefit to themselves from their efforts? It would seem natural that selfless or sacrificial acts would be destructive of value practically by definition.
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oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: hmm.. Did someone create the universe?, or did the universe create itself?
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Risen, if someone created the universe, did that being create itself?

Why is rejecting the idea that everything came from nothing somehow noble, while accepting the idea that everything came from a being, who consequently came from nothing, could possibly be considered any meaningful distinction? Both instances something came from nothing- but one asks for even greater complexity and improbability
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oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Who said the creator was created? The universe shows signs of a beginning, but we haven't noticed that with a creator.. Now your just speculating Lipton.
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CoIin
CoIin: Any talk of a creator sounds like speculation to me
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EraseThisFace
EraseThisFace: @ risen_sun

>>In context with the opening post, I believe there has to be a creator. If one doesn't accept this, then were left with a simple "i don't know".>>

There's a third, definitive option called disbelief.

>>On top of this, could we think that this vast universe, the complexity of it all, is just floating around with nobody in charge? That it all just.. happens to be getting by? >>>

Yes.

>>The universe shows signs of a beginning, but we haven't noticed that with a creator..

"We" haven't noticed -anything- when it comes to a creator.
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HandyBrat
(Post deleted by staff 10 years ago)
Point5andahalf
Point5andahalf: ok it's true, selfishness and self interest is necessary for survival of the individual. But what we do is not necessarily the best for survival of the species in the long term.
Some things we do in our efforts to survive are also helpful to the people around us, and some things are destructive.

I know it's idealistic, but if everyone took an interest in, and helped those less fortunate there would be no reason for anyone to be selfish.
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youllthinkyourehappy
youllthinkyourehappy: I have personally never been on the opinion that what humans do on mass is right, but as for the terms ...i still hold my ground because the way people use words only in one sense that they have been taught without even thinking about the possibilities, that can widen the meaning and understanding of words and systems around words.
But obviously that's my personal quirk.

My ideal world would be the kind where medicine would be at the maximum of basic hygiene and no one would distort nature's natural state more than breaking a branch to build a hut for themselves...So i don't approve any of the selfishness that we have taken upon ourselves and defining it as as intelligence and evolution and God's will and such...
And again..that's just my own personal quirk.

If someone gives something of theirs, it is because it will make them feel better about themselves. (if it didn't, people wouldn't do it. Most of the time it is subconscious, but that doesn't mean that it's not real) Isn't doing something to make yourself feel better...a bit selfish?

(No need to explain what amount of good comes from charity to people who actually are starving and such)
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