Can Islam Cope With Modernity?

Koko_Krunch: Westerners have rarely understood Islam. Attempts to describe it are normally done in the school of thought typified by Rousseau, wherein other peoples are assumed to have the virtues that the writer believes his own lack. There are profound differences between Western and Islamic thought, between perceptions of institutions, and understandings about the basis of society.

At that basic level of truth which is never exact, Western civilization is only built in part on religion. Judeo-Christian morality underlies Western political, legal and social structures, but Christ's distinction between the authorities of God and Caesar have generally kept Church and State in different spheres. In Islam, no such difference exists. Church and state are inseparable and Muslim concepts of what is meant by these are also completely different from those held by Westerners.

Islam is a complete ideology, which, like Marxism, begs for totalitarianism. Both are intended to be a complete design for a final society for all of humanity. The Quran is a social rule book, which was expanded upon and interpreted by law and commentary in the first few centuries after the Hegira. By about 900 AD, the process was complete and Islam has not been allowed to change much since then. As a design for life in a medieval society, Islam is fine. As a blueprint for life in the modern era, structural stresses are appearing.

In Islam, the individual must submit to the will of God as expressed in the Quran and interpreted by the clergy. Necessarily, this leaves little room for reform or flexibility. For those societies that do attempt a major change, reformers must cede the moral high ground to opponents with a ready-made conservative ideology. Once widespread dissatisfaction with a ruler exists, opponents invariably hoist the Green Flag and topple him on religious grounds for not being a good Muslim.

The rule of law -- so essential to Western societies -- finds shallow soil in Islamic nations. It is not that the law must invariably come in second to the rule of religion, but rather that religion and law are the same. The concept of individual rights in an Islamic society is well advanced -- if one is a Muslim male who chooses never to question the tenets of the faith. Women and non-Muslims remain perpetually disadvantaged, even today. A Muslim who is deemed to have deserted the faith is an apostate who must be destroyed. Admittedly, even an organization like the Taliban in Afghanistan can be seen to be sometimes tolerant of non-Muslims, so long as they keep their place.

Koko_Krunch: The Islamic world is struggling to cope with modern technology and Western notions of human rights and democracy. The strengths of Western civilization are well recognized, particularly after the easy imposition of colonial rule in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. Some things are even easily grasped. Iran, for example, has no trouble adjusting to the use of mass media to convey the precepts of its revolution. It also has no problem sending off its young men for training in modern physics, engineering and micro-biology. The Iranian military, like those of other Islamic nations, is eager to accept modern weaponry and to pursue the development of chemical, biological and nuclear arms.

One should also remember that for many centuries Islam's accomplishments in the arts and sciences far exceeded those of Europe. Ibn Warriq, however, points out that these accomplishments owe little to the original crusaders of Islam -- but rather rest with the cosmopolitan nature of the early Caliphates. Once Islam fully asserted itself on the populations of its conquered territories, its inherent arch-conservatism led to widespread stagnation.

The full panoply of modernity is hard to accept. Successful democratic models in the Islamic World are few and far between. Pakistan hasn't been too stable, and the generals have ruled more often than not. Lebanon functioned briefly -- and provided a clear warning of the dangers of a multicultural political structure. Iran, while using mass media to foster the revolution, is extremely resistant to the idea of letting its citizens have full access to the global media.

Koko_Krunch: Islam is troubled by the conflict between secularism (which Kemal Ataturk realized was essential for modern life) and traditionalists in every Islamic nation. The Turkish experiment has seldom been easy -- or widely replicated. Many Muslim leaders turned to homegrown combinations of nationalism, socialism and militarism. This has yielded a variety of interesting results ranging from the Algerian Junta to Colonel Qhadafi and Saddam Hussein; while Egypt and Tunisia seem to be hanging on to a degree of stability. All of these societies, of course, have an armed Fundamentalist opposition. Interestingly, Tunisia has the greatest tolerance for diverse political expression, and its fundamentalist Muslim movement has largely confined itself to peaceful expressions of protest. Qhadafi's effort to reconcile Islam with national-socialism inevitably lead to compromises in Islamic doctrine, and these have helped create a new internal opposition.

All of these Modernist/Secularist traditions have little depth. Moreover, they have proven remarkably susceptible to corruption and single-party rule, even in their most benign forms.

The doctrines of Islamic law cannot change, or rather, cannot be allowed to change. A basic tenant of Islam is that it is a perfect design for a final society. Ergo, there is no room for real diversity of opinion. The freedom of women and non-Muslims can never be guaranteed either. Indeed, a Muslim living in a non-Muslim society can be reasonably interpreted to be at risk until such time as he is governed by proper Islamic institutions.

Any political, legal or social structure or reform that could not withstand a challenge from orthodoxy is built on sand and cannot last. Freedom of expression and open intellectual inquiry are likewise limited -- notwithstanding the art, philosophy and science that has appeared during occasional permissive periods.

This basic conflict between religious ultra-conservatism and illiberal forms of secularism will continue to divide every Islamic nation. It will continue to generate resentment against the West for generating new technologies and forcing new notions. The only alternative is for a new school of Islamic scholars to completely reinvent their religion --- and this would only add a new dimension to the internal conflict.

The Islamic world will know little peace in coming decades. Indeed, it knows very little now, and its internal frustrations have already been projected outwards. More will come.

Article by the Mackenzie Institute

Faith & proof: Actually, Islam encourage us to be up to date and we,muslims, we are not anti-modern, Qur'aan told us 2 be up 2 date, but i don't have to be western to "modern"

Noveras: Islam invented Modernism go back and read the history of Islam and the history of Europe during the dark ages and early Renaissance.

Western view of modernism is secularism meaning state and religion are to be separated and yet the funny part is big cities in secular states such as New York and Landon which is the icon of western modernism have a very high crime rates while nations that combine Islam and state matter have a very low crime rates.

Again don't just get information from one side but you are the type of people who even God appeared in front of you,you will say "Ah this is some Hollywood effects".

P.S : Your nick name shows how immature and closed minded you are

pugpeppers: nickname?whats the nickname?

Koko_Krunch: 'read the history of Islam and the history of Europe during the dark ages and early Renaissance'

You do realise all that knowledge was pilfered and pillaged from other cultures? The invasion of Alexandria, the greatest library of the world, contained all the knowledge of the Ancient Greeks...even the 'arabic number system' was partly stolen from the Hindus.
Yes, Europe certainly did have a dark age, thanks to religious fundamentalism, but fortunately it had a reoformation and was kicked dragging and screaming from this primative time into the Renaissance and Modernisation. Islam deserves no credit for doing this single-handledly.

The new dark age is happening in the middle-east at this moment. And there will be no end to it until Islam has a reformation.

'New York and Landon which is the icon of western modernism have a very high crime rates while nations that combine Islam and state matter have a very low crime rates.'

Just more anti-western ignorance, based on xenophobia.

How is the church burning going at the moment in Malaysia?

Koko_Krunch: Nothing to see here. Post deleted by user.

Koko_Krunch: Nothing to see here. Post deleted by user.

Koko_Krunch: Go to Sukhumvit Soi 3 in Bangkok (Little Arabia) at about 9pm any night of the week to see crowds of Arab men bartering for the services of local and foreign prostitutes, while their wives and kids are back at the hotel. Thats Islam in action baby!

flashie: y what is you do there? have you fallen for a cross gender dude koko?

Koko_Krunch: casual racial stereotyping ftw!

flashie: whats racial about it?

im just asking what you do in bangkok, is it work or migration, did you fall in love with a ladyboy? it happens.

just asking

Koko_Krunch: Do you all black people play basketball?

Koko_Krunch: Just showing more of your ignorance. I mentioned Bangkok and your first comment was something about cross-genderism...You summed up the entire race of the Kingdom of Thailand as a nation of dress wearing 'dudes'.

flashie: not exclusively because of the bangkok tho bro. dont get it twisted.

far be it for me to generalise, but there is a demand among ex pat westerners for that kinky shit right? thats true

my g/f happens to have a mate whos doing exactly that in thailand. shame the economy is so phucked they need to do that to satisfy the demand really

Koko_Krunch: There is no need to twist and turn, your ignorant views are plain to see.

And stop with the diversionary tactics.

If your looking for love with a transexual i suggest you start a new topic elsewhere.

flashie: nah im cool. ill stick to what i know

Koko_Krunch: Glue sniffing?

flashie: maybe

Koko_Krunch: inb4 last word from Flashie.

Faith & proof: you sould know that during the Middle Ages and during one era in particular, the Pape pronounced a curse upon Ibn Rushed and cursed all who reads his philosophies and made it incumbent on all priests and christians to curse him, that is the western civilization that you boast of as the civilization of freedom and freedom of speech and so forht.
What happened ultimately was that Ibn Rushed, the muslim philosopher, became the pioneer of European renaissance and academic positions dedicated to study his philosophy wereestablished in European Universities
If you have heard anything in the history of philosophy or read it, are you familiar with Latin Rushism?
That is what enlightened Europe.
a Europe was drwon in darkness had it not been for the muslims in Andalusia

Koko_Krunch: Ibn Rashid the master of Aristotelian philosophy?

Like i say, Islam deserves only small credit for any source of knowledge. There were merely a conduit, passing on Ancient Greek thought to Europe.

And furthermore he relied on Arabic translation of Greek thought and not on primary sources.

Can I ask where your sources come from? (I guess i already know)

super_sugar_fun_time: But remember that was the middle ages. which is the 5th to the 15th Century.

That isn't now.

What we are getting our hair off about now, is the fact that your religion claims to be one of peace, but it condones and promotes violence all over the world.

The fact that you demand special treatment due to your religion, which is one that denies evolution but but believes in supernatural entities.

Those of you who believe that the quran is full of science, when it quite plainly is not.

If islam was to take the positive philosophy from the quran, like, look after your neighbors, or something else positive that it may promote, although I have to admit I am at a loss to think of anything.

If then it dropped the idea that it's women are the worlds most 'respected' second class citizens. If it realised that effigy burning is just plain silly. if it accepted that gay people do not deserve to be put to death.if it realised that a danish cartoonistis not going to end islam by making an illustration etc etc. Most people wouldn't have a problem with it.

Koko_Krunch: Some education on the 'European Renaissance'

Since there never actually was a European Renaissance, how could Islam have any influence?. The term "Renaissance" was invented by the anti-German Italian patriot Petrarch, who - oblivious to the fact that he was half German himself - blamed "the barbarous Germans" for the ruin of "classical Italian civilization" (Rome) and he called the independence movement of the Italian states of his time (1300) "the Renaissance."

The term was resurrected by 19th Century secular humanists who decided to use it to designate a wholly imaginary (they were the ones doing the imagining) "rebirth of classical Greek humanism" (which never even existed in ancient Greece, let alone the High Middle Ages) putting an end to the "superstitious and theocratic Medieval period" which wasn't actually terribly superstitious or theocratic. The fact is that the intellectual, philosophical, and theological categories of Europeans remained pretty unchanged from the so-called "Dark Ages" until the Reformation.

Islam did destroy/over-run late classical civilization in the 7th & 8th centuries though, however.

Islam also was indirectly responsible for the Reformation: if the Turks hadn't conquered Constantinople in 1453 all those fabulous Greek manuscripts that inaugurated "the New Learning" in the late 15th century, forming the soil from which the Reformation grew, never would have wound up in the West, and the Reformers never would have realized the Catholic view of Justification was in error.

Koko_Krunch: Is evolution still banned in Saudi Arabian schools?