CHRISTIANISM IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW GOD... (Page 3)

orkanen: Zanjan: Fragility is not the reason people leave when you so blatantly show you're not interested in facts opposing your delusion.

Zanjan: I haven't seen anybody submit *facts* opposing what I type here. This is probably because I've already used up most of the facts and there's none left for them.......awwww.....but I'm sure there's no shortage of opinions to go around.

As for their leaving this place, I'm certain I'm not that important to anyone. The floor is as open to them as it is for everyone else. Maybe they simply have other things to do; if not, by your logic, you'd have to explain why you failed to keep them here

You know, the world keeps on turning; whether anyone is willing to surf the crest, tag along, or be dragged forward with it is inconsequential. We're all in this together - there's no running away.

(I see Ork picking up the pieces of broken China and sticking them to his fingers with crazy glue)

WITNESS REV 11_ 3: i am here to prepare the way before the lord...
i am a prophet...
i was expected

Zanjan: We expected that someone would go off topic sooner or later.

Hint: the wise don't need to go around telling people they're wise.

WITNESS REV 11_ 3: i am a christian......(and the "high priest" at that) .....there for my opinions regatrding the christian faith is ....a professional one?

Zanjan: Somebody's paying you for your opinions? Or is that pro bono?

WITNESS REV 11_ 3: im the best paid man in the history of man kind

Tanderley: "The 'ism' refers to a fringe political movement a particular religion can't control - like the Crusades, which was the most shameful act of inhumanity any group has performed until recent times. The Spanish inquisition and infamous witch hunts were local bursts of hot air and paranoia, not so much land grabs."

I'd say this was a bit overstated. The Crusades were just one more war in a barbaric age. They were small in scope, they set themselves strictly limited objectives, they were short-lived, and they were a failure. The Jihad that made the whole of the Middle East and North Africa, and much of northern India, Muslim, was, on the other hand, huge in scope, set itself unlimited objectives (and still does), slaughtered a hundred times as many people as the Christian Crusades ever did, and...it was a resounding success. It really did make vast stretches of the known world Muslim by the use of slaughter and subjugation. The Christian Crusades were a tempest in a teapot by comparison with that.

As for witch hunts, they didn't really get started until after the Reformation, and they probably represent a paranoia arising from that event more than any deeper belief about witches. The Medieval Church actually disapproved of belief that witches even existed. The witch craze was a horror, though, from what I've heard of it, and we can be thankful we don't live in that world. (Which isn't to say that we don't live in a world guilty of things that make the witch hunts look like a picnic at a girl's school, but, that is another story.) The Spanish Inquisition, believe it or not, had a history of very just judicial decisions, and of protecting the innocent where they thought they were looking at innocence. If only that were the whole story.

"So, not to worry - Christianity had it's whack at the cat. The angry steam spewed in a final burst and is now gone. These people have been royally tamed; having returned to basics, they're generally a peaceful lot these days."

Final burst? When was that? Christianity, like it or not, was the basis of the greatest and most accomplished culture in human history. It inspired artistic creativity, philosophical thought, social amelioration, and charity, unparalleled by any other religion. It is the real source of modern democracy, which originated in monastic governance in the Middle Ages.

Zanjan: " It really did make vast stretches of the known world Muslim by the use of slaughter and subjugation"
"The Christian Crusades were a tempest in a teapot by comparison with that."

Why should size matter? They were angry that God decided to kick them out of the Holy Land - they wanted it back but weren't pure hearted enough to deserve it. It's the same with Muslims in the Holy Land today.

You're confusing politics with religion. How many Christians were in combat during world war 2? Would you think that any of them were true Christians? I wouldn't. Same as the Muslims, who war for any reason. Jihad - a holy war - is a battle against one's self, not others. Christians also appear to be ignorant of what that means.

One doesn't make a person belong to any religion - those who converted did so willingly. Let's not pass the buck to someone else.
"
"The Medieval Church actually disapproved of belief that witches even existed.

If that's true, then the church was powerless to bring their members into line. Who cares what THEIR story was? WE know the story: it's simple - there's NO excuse for torture - there was nothing good in the people who supported or allowed the Spanish Inquisition to occur.

"Christianity, like it or not, was the basis of the greatest and most accomplished culture in human history"

Once, it was. Their glory lasted barely 500 years, then it was downhill from there. Islam built a far more sophisticated culture and powerful civilization - way ahead of the Christians. Once it was great......it's glory lasted at least a thousand years, twice as long as the Christian empire. Well, it's not anymore.

No civilization was made to permanently endure - that's against God's plan for mankind.

Instead, we have the remnants, the lessons of past civilizations to learn from; those are the footings on which to build a new race of man, one that lives up to God's desires this time, permanently abandoning war.

There are some of us here right now.

graceplusnothin: christian faith===christ alone..by..faith alone

Tanderley: "You're confusing politics with religion. How many Christians were in combat during world war 2? Would you think that any of them were true Christians? I wouldn't. Same as the Muslims, who war for any reason. Jihad - a holy war - is a battle against one's self, not others. Christians also appear to be ignorant of what that means."

Jihad, holy war, a vicious concept if ever there was one, is war against the infidel for the purpose of spreading true religion. For all the attempts to falsify this fact, it remains a fact. And it is also a fact that Islam is the only religion in history to have such a doctrine. That's why Islam is the only religion in history to have originally spread and to have become a major world phenomenon in the first place, through violence, slaughter, subjugation. And that is why Islam continues to motivate its followers to perpetrate violence against infidels and apostate Muslims to this day. I presume you don't need any lessons about that.

World War II? As far as I know there were many sincere Christians fighting in that, and I don't see anything un-Christian about their doing so, considering what they were fighting against, and what they freed the world from. There is nothing in Christian belief that says you can't be a soldier. Christian countries might need defending as much as any other country. They just don't murder infidels for being infidels. Only Islam does that.

"One doesn't make a person belong to any religion - those who converted did so willingly. Let's not pass the buck to someone else."

If this refers to the original spread of Islam throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and India, and the repeated Muslim attempts to do the same thing to Europe, it is a very unfunny joke. Millions of people were "made to belong" to that religion, by the violent conquest and subjugation of their countries. They were converted with a sword at their throats. Consult any historian at all, if you doubt my word on the subject.

"Christianity, like it or not, was the basis of the greatest and most accomplished culture in human history"

"Once, it was. Their glory lasted barely 500 years, then it was downhill from there. Islam built a far more sophisticated culture and powerful civilization - way ahead of the Christians. Once it was great......it's glory lasted at least a thousand years, twice as long as the Christian empire. Well, it's not anymore."

I'm not sure I quite understand this. The civilization I was referring to exists right now, in Europe and North America. It may not be particularly Christian today, but it owes most of its foundation, the achievement on which all later achievements were based, to Christianity. I don't know what 500 years you're referring to. That is an absurd figure.

As for Islamic civilization, I think you will find if you look into it that that was not really Islamic at all. The achievements of that civilization were really those of the people Islam had conquered and subjugated. (The Dome of the Rock, to take one small example, was built by Greek Christian architects and craftsmen.) What happened to the great Islamic civilization of the Middle Ages? I'm sorry to say, it became entirely Muslim, and when that happened, when the natives lost touch with their own cultures, the calibre of Islamic civilization dropped like a stone. It has remained low ever since. The West has remained high ever since, whether it is still Christian or not.

deuce916: "There is nothing in Christian belief that says you can't be a soldier." I think you'll find in their bible that it says "Do not kill." I'm pretty sure it's one of their god given commandments. & I'm pretty sure that's what a soldier does.

Zanjan: Tanderly: "Jihad, holy war, a vicious concept if ever there was one, is war against the infidel"

You need to get your facts out of the Quran - *the infidel* is a Muslim who has turned against Muhammad. The "self" part is about *submission to God* - that is, one doesn't take vengeance, the courts will decide. Muhammad didn't support vigilantism and hooligan mentality. If you believe what militant terrorists tell you, then you're easily deceived by liars.

" And that is why Islam continues to motivate its followers to perpetrate violence......"

Sounds like you're spreading a hate message there.

"World War II? As far as I know there were many sincere Christians fighting in that, and I don't see anything un-Christian about their doing so........."There is nothing in Christian belief that says you can't be a soldier"

More precisely, there's nothing that says you can't be of service in a war effort - one doesn't need to be a soldier for that. Once can serve their country medically and through communications etc.

There IS something against killing others. Go back to the time of Christ and what Jesus said to those who wanted to go fight in a war ( ie., against Roman occupation). He told them that was NOT the way, not His way. A true Christian follows the way of Christ, yes?

So, you want soldiers to defend your country? No problem, there will always be people willing to gun down anyone....your country can use them. But those who walk the path of God, as a faithful servant of God, serves God first. As Jesus said, you cant have 2 masters.

"What happened to the great Islamic civilization of the Middle Ages"

Same thing that happened to the Christian civilization. To everything there is a season - spring, summer, winter and fall: Jesus spoke of the signs of the seasons because people understood what to expect form them. Christianity had it's spring, rise, summer glory, then fading into its winter - religion is organic so must follow the dynamics of natural flow. The changes in Christianity have been man's attempt to make it adapt to modern times.

You cant advance your religion by putting other religions down....contempt isn't attractive.

Tanderley: "You need to get your facts out of the Quran - the infidel is a Muslim who has turned against Muhammad. The "self" part is about submission to God - that is, one doesn't take vengeance, the courts will decide. Muhammad didn't support vigilantism and hooligan mentality. If you believe what militant terrorists tell you, then you're easily deceived by liars."

Madam, you must be joking. Islam was spread by the sword - by invasion, conquest, slaughter, and subjugation, because Islam teaches that divine truth must be spread that way. It does indeed also teach that any Muslim who has exercised his freedom of conscience so as to convert to another religion must be murdered for it, but that's not the jihad that made Islam a major world religion. Crusades that make the Christian ones look amateurish made Islam a major world religion.

I repeat, there have always been Christian soldiers, there is nothing in Christian belief that says there can't be, and the world can be grateful that there were. Europe would have been Islamic by 700 AD otherwise.

And you are still entirely mistaken about Christian civiliztion. Western civilization today IS Christian civilization - it has simply secularized to the point where it is no longer identifiable with the religion that fostered it. But its distinctiveness, and its tradition, and its accomplishment, are all expressions of Christian thought and the creativity arising from it.

I presume the same thing is true of Islamic civilization, which would probably be why that has been inferior and uncreative ever since the forced conversion of the peoples that Islam conquered during its original spread finally cut them off from their own heritage. Once that had happened, Islam's future was bleak.

Zanjan: " Islam was spread by the sword - by invasion, conquest, slaughter, and subjugation, because Islam teaches that divine truth must be spread that way."

There isn't a shred of evidence to back that up.....which explains why you haven't supplied any facts. We're left to see your statements as scooped from redneck hearsay.

No one begrudges you an opinion, but have the guts to word it as your position, instead of hurling false accusations against innocent people.

I know what Islam teaches and so do Muslims - these aren't the people you're attacking by these accusations. You're attacking God and His words; misrepresenting them is one thing, but preying on the vulnerable and taking advantage of the ignorant to inflame their prejudices will discredit you. Think again about what you're saying.

"there is nothing in Christian belief that says there can't be"

There is everything in Christian text that forbids being a soldier of war. Just one simple quote should be enough, but there are many more textual references for stubborn people who want to have it their way.

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" - that's from scripture. This has never been God's way, thus will never be the path to God.

" it has simply secularized to the point where it is no longer identifiable with the religion that fostered it."

LOL..too funny. That's civilian society for ya. It aint a civilization.

" But its distinctiveness, and its tradition, and its accomplishment, are all expressions of Christian thought and the creativity arising from it."

You're discounting the contributions of a few billion people who've never been Christians, yet have been part and parcel of the advancement of mankind the last thousand years. We live in a multicultural climate where all you can sift of Christianity from it are ancient buildings, art and crucifixes.

Today, everyone knows the 10 commandments but hey, those are Jewish!

I believe in giving credit where it's due - to individual people, no matter what race, gender or religion they are.

Tanderley: Wow. That's a really stupid post, Zanjan. I'm not sure what "evidence" of universally acknowledged historical facts you want to see in a forum, but, if you just do what you have obviously never done and read any standard history of the subject, you will discover (somewhat late in the day) that Islam was spread throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and northern India in the seventh century by invasion and conquest. That isn't defamation, it's just basic history.

"The Cambridge History of Islam", or "The Oxford History of Islam", would be good places to start. If those are too long for you, some shorter titles that any library should have would be "The History of Islam" by Robert Payne, "A Brief History of Islam" by Tamara Sonn, or
"A Short History of Islam" by W. Montgomery Watt. Each of these histories details quite clearly the conquests that Islamized the Middle East, North Africa, and Northern India, as well as the thousand years of attempts by Islamic powers to do the same thing to Europe.

It is hardly surprising that a religion like that, the only one in world history to be spread by the sword, is still motivating violence today. That it doesn't motivate every one of its adherents to take part in such violence is simply the same phenomenon as Christianity failing to inspire every living Christian to turn the other cheek when you punch him in the face. People are lazy about their beliefs (fortunately in some cases).

Zanjan: Tanderley, show your "basic history" then - specifically by quotes. Include the Quran while you're at it.

The religions of God have no guidance at all for politics of countries. Wars have ZERO to do with religion, just like today.

To what religion do you credit the war of 1812, American Civil war, the Chinese Rebellion, French Revolution, Napoleonic wars, WW1 and WW2, Vietnam, Boar and Korean wars, Falkland Islands, Afghanistan, Gulf, Columbian, African Tribal........yada yada yada? Have any of North America's Prime Ministers & Presidents represented any religion of God?

Interestingly (aside for a few battles in Japan and central America), in the last thousand years up until the 1700's, seems the biggest wars were mostly fought on western European soil. Except in the Near East, few people on the planet during this time ever saw a Muslim.


By the way, nice book title goggling....you might want to peek between the covers. Then compare to books actually written about the developments of Islam by Muslims, and by those who were born amongst them.

I suggest you read "An introduction to Shih'i Islam" by Moojan Momen.

lord_gord: there is no division in Gods church. branches grow on one tree. The fact is, what would you tell me is the answer to this question:

Who is Jesus? (you are not allowed to answer: the son of God; the Son of Man; the Word of God; or the Light of the World )

The answer is Wisdom. Jesus Christ is Wisdom. Only through Wisdom can you know God.

Zanjan: Everybody knows who Jesus is -> the Prophet-Founder of one of God's religions.

Wisdom is not an entity - it's "understanding"; you can't adopt it, you learn it.

Acquiring divine wisdom is impossible without knowing God FIRST; the degree of knowledge one has of God depends on each individual and, that will change.

It stands to reason that all knowledge and learning ultimately leads to God; consequently, it stands that all religions sent by God are a path to Himself.

The topic here is about the PATH, but God has never used that word - He described the spiritual journey as "The Way", meaning *God's* Way, not your way. Jesus wasn't the first to use that term nor the first to model it.

Following God's Way enables one to do His good pleasure. For some, the object of attraction is heaven (nearness to God). One may approach those gates but they'll never get through without the golden key: Obedience to the Covenant.

sprocket girl:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Zanjan: Said 2 thousand years ago. Moses said same thing 3.5 thousand years ago, and Muhammad said same thing, 1.5 thousand years ago, and Baha'u'llah nearly 200 years ago.

Who are you going to believe and why? All of them.

They say the same thing because God sent them to say it. There's a pattern here, alright.

ghostgeek: If people are still replying to this thread, there is clearly life after death.

ghostgeek: Just not divine life.