United Kingdom is just asking for it (Page 3)

WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Don't let me stop you.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: It's interesting that the finger pointing is only ever in certain directions, even though what's being criticised is universal.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Oh, you feel offended by my facts? You entered this chat while the conversation was set by the 13th and my responses to him on colonisation.

It's no my duty to type things that'll make you feel comfortable.
Also not my duty to talk on topics that you feel should be talked about.

As I said, don't let me stop you.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Interesting statement:

“At the beginning of the eighteenth century, as the British economic historian Angus Maddison has demonstrated, India’s share of the world economy was 23 per cent, as large as all of Europe put together. (It had been 27 per cent in 1700, when the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb’s treasury raked in £100 million in tax revenues alone.) By the time the British departed India, it had dropped to just over 3 per cent. The reason was simple: India was governed for the benefit of Britain. Britain’s rise for 200 years was financed by its depredations in India”

It might save you from waddling over to India for reimbursement as it appears more was taken than was given after the British colonisers left.

You're welcome. I saved you a trip.
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The13th
The13th: Wow guys, Indian affairs experts. Let me try to find some yash raj movies to start figuring things out.

But I heard British East India company in later years really isnt making profit at all. The finance to run the colony just exhaust whatever money that can be racked in. Lets find out more. Sometime things arent right to measure by numbers like 45 Trillion etc. May be we should ask, had the British didnt come, and instead we have Netherland or France and their way of doing things, would there be a mass of educated intellectual in India who would eventually take the reign of software industry?

I didnt see Indonesia run by Netherland produced graduates to run Silicon valley.
(Edited by The13th)
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: The Russian tennis players are banned from playing at Wimbledon
That's stupid like it's there fault
But that's what these Interlectuals and western think tanks want, The Russian people too rise up and overthrow Putin
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: The BBC lately seems More Indian than British
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: All this focus on the British in India by WHlSKY, but no interest in the misery that the Muslims brought to the country. Why, I wonder?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: The drain of wealth out of India by the British is a well known fact that has been meticulously recorded by historians and economists.

However, the drain of wealth originally started with the Islamic invaders who carted off prodigious quantities of wealth to their Arab, Persian, Turkic and Central Asian homelands for a longer period than the British in India.

Muslim invaders also carried away millions of Hindus as slaves and Muslim rulers exported Hindu slaves. India was the world’s leading economy from 1 CE to 1000 CE but in the second millennium it lost the top spot to China after the Islamic invaders razed India’s universities, disrupted the economic systems and caused havoc in religious and social life.

The quantum of wealth that flowed into the Mughal treasury was enormous. Here’s what the historian Abul Fazl wrote about India’s wealth: “In Iran and Turan, where only one treasurer is appointed, the accounts are in a confused state; but here in India, the amount of the revenues is so great, and the business so multifarious that 12 treasuries are necessary for storing the money, nine for the different kinds of cash-payments, and three for precious stones, gold, and inlaid jewellery. The extent of the treasuries is too great to admit of my giving a proper description with other matters before me.”

Mughals – Drain game

Babur, the founder of the Mughal Empire, in his autobiography Baburnama records the gifts and presents he had sent “in the cause of God” to the holy men of Samarkand, Khurasan, Mecca and Medina.

Shortly after his victory over the last Delhi sultan Ibrahim Lodhi, which gave the Mughals the keys to the imperial treasury at Agra, Babur virtually emptied the treasury through his generosity, which of course extended only to Muslims.

Babur writes in his autobiography Baburnama: “Suitable money gifts were bestowed from the treasury on the whole army, to every tribe there was, Afghan, Hazara, Arab, Balluch etc to each according to its position. Every trader and student, indeed every man who had come with the army, took ample portion and share of bounteous gift and largess. And indeed to the whole various train of relations and younger children went masses of red and white (gold and silver), of plenishing (furniture and furnishings), jewels and slaves.”

Many gifts went to Babur’s extended family in his native Uzbekistan, modern Tajikistan, modern Xinjiang in China and Arabia. “Valuable gifts were sent for the various relations in Samarkand, Khurasan, Kashghar and Iraq. To holy men belonging to Samarkand and Khurasan went offerings vowed to God; so too to Makka and Madina.”

In Afghanistan, where Babur wandered many years during his youth, every single citizen was rewarded. The amount disbursed must have been huge. “We gave one shahrukhi (silver coin) for every soul in the country of Kabul and the valley-side of Varsak (in Afghanistan), man and woman, bond and free, of age or non-age.”

Presents of jackets and silk dresses of honour, of gold and silver, of household furnishings and various goods were given to those from Andijan, Uzbekistan, and to those who had come from Sukh and Hushlar, “the places whither we had gone landless and homeless”. Gifts of the same kind were given to the servants of Qurban and Shaikhl and the peasants of Kahmard (in Afghanistan).

It is clear that hearing of Babur’s windfall, multitudes of Central Asians and Afghans had travelled to Delhi to claim cash, material gifts and slaves. Those who couldn’t trudge the vast distance were supplied cash in the comfort of their homes.

According to the Persian historian Firishta, “Babur left himself stripped so bare by his far-flung largesse that he was nick-named Qalandar.”

Reality of Mughal rule

Leftist and secular historians are right about one thing – the Mughals were the richest dynasty of their time. But wealth has never been the yardstick for greatness.

What they don’t see is the reality hiding in plain sight – India under the Mughals was one of the most miserable countries in the world. The relentless wars of the Mughals, in particular Aurangzeb’s 28 year war of attrition with the Marathas, and the loot of the peasantry were the prime reasons why the Indian economy was in tatters.

In contrast to the previous Hindu rulers who taxed the farmers just 16 per cent of the total produce, the Mughal tax rate was 30-50 per cent, plus some additional cesses.

Rukhsana Iftikhar of the University of Punjab, Lahore, observes in her study titled ‘Historical Fallacies’, in the reign of Shah Jahan, 36.5 per cent of the entire assessed revenue of the empire was assigned to 68 princes and amirs and a further 25 per cent to 587 officers. That is, 62 per cent of the total revenue of the empire was arrogated by 665 individuals.Therefore, the Mughal period was a golden age only for kings, princes and some individuals. The subjects of Hindustan, the real custodians of this State, were lucky if they had a loaf of bread.

(This information is inspired by, and dedicated to, True Indology, who has been banned by Twitter India for consistently revealing the truth about India’s history and also because he was exposing the lies of the secular media and leftist historians.)

For more detailed information please refer (India fact) 8

Reference:

Abul Fazl, Ain-i-Akbari, The Imperial Treasuries, http://persian.packhum.org/persian//main

Annette Beveridge, Baburnama, Vol II, page 22
Annette Beveridge, Baburnama, Vol II, page 529
Irfan Habib, Agrarian System of Mughal India, 1556–1707, page 38
John Slight, The British Empire and the Hajj
Radhakamal Mukerjee, Economic History of India, page 92
Rukhsana Iftikhar, Historical Fallacies, South Asian Studies, A Research Journal of South Asian Studies Vol 28, No. 2, July – December 2013, page 367
Islamic loot: How the Mughals drained wealth out of India | IndiaFacts

[ https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-world-economy-was-Indian-GDP-from-1-AD-to-1000-AD ]
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
You forgot to mention that I also did not mention the very shady disease called cancer, Ghostgeek.

Perhaps I am a supervillain.

I think someone should remind Ghostgeek the thread topic and also how the conversation lead to colonisation and the British. He seems to be paranoid over me.


(Edited by WHlSKY)
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Ghostgeek, didn’t you already have a full out thread on Muslims? Seems you just can’t handle the criticism… why can’t the British handle criticism? Will make a more active topic apparently.

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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Anyone remember the Jallianwala Bagh massacre, also known as the Amritsar massacre? Nice bit of reading: (Trigger warning for Ghostgeek)


This was an interesting one: (edit as this account speaks more on the economic exploitation)

India did not need the British. It was the British who needed colonies as India. Contrary to what some will like to believe, there was no ‘Saviour to the Savages’.

__________

Britain's Industrial Revolution was built on the de-industrialisation of India - the destruction of Indian textiles and their replacement by manufacturing in England, using Indian raw material and exporting the finished products back to India and the rest of the world.

The handloom weavers of Bengal had produced and exported some of the world's most desirable fabrics, especially cheap but fine muslins, some light as "woven air".

Britain's response was to cut off the thumbs of Bengali weavers, break their looms and impose duties and tariffs on Indian cloth, while flooding India and the world with cheaper fabric from the new satanic steam mills of Britain.

Weavers became beggars, manufacturing collapsed; the population of Dhaka, which was once the great centre of muslin production, fell by 90%.
So instead of a great exporter of finished products, India became an importer of British ones, while its share of world exports fell from 27% to 2%.


______

Got to hand it to those Indian people, not only were they plundered and slaughtered by the ex Coloniser, they also managed to triumphantly make it into Silicon Valley aye.


(Edited by WHlSKY)
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The13th
The13th: Its not like that Whisky, I still dont have time to examine historical facts, but I think it is absolutely unthinking for India to be without their British history.

Let me put myself in a different angle, them Brit and Indian are just brothers. Sometime brothers kill brothers, sometime brother steal from brothers, its just normal. The money might have get shifted to Britian, but money is a thing that flows, whatever go to Britian will flow to other parts of the world, and some eventually back to India. In the end the world become better.

And alone the way, modern educations, administration, constitution come to India. Those things are invaluable.

Without the Brit, could Indian subcontinents be a few warring states? Its hard to imagine not. There probably wont be pakistan and Bangladesh, but lots of angry people going at each other, could have lead to millions of dead instead of whatever massacre. I assure you those British are not very good at mass murder. They probably go home crying after doing it.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
The13th you started your sentence: "I still dont have time to examine historical facts, but I think..."

Everything else you said is based on your own opinion and I see elements of trolling. But, I am bored and will lay out a response to you.

_________


1) The historical facts showed that India was already striving without the British interference.
2) The historical facts showed that India was left in a lower situation when the British left.
3) The historical facts showed that India fought for Independence and did not want the British rule. They did not ask for it either. This clearly means they saw the need to be without it and that it kept them back.

You have too much of a naive submissive view of politics, the13th. Britains and Indians were not brothers as brothers do not massacre and exploit.

A) You say: "the money might have get shifted to Britian, but money is a thing that flows, whatever go to Britian will flow to other parts of the world, and some eventually back to India..."

Have you not read the simple example I posted above? The stats on India's share of the world economy being at 23% prior to colonisation to 3% after?

B) You say: "And alone the way, modern educations, administration, constitution come to India."

India charted its own course, the constitute if you just take a moment to check was established years after India got its independence. It was the Indians who drafted their own constitution.

_________

Nothing you typed had any substance to it. I'm disappointed. How about we try this: You pause and fact check your opinions and bring something solid we can discuss.



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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
The relationship between colony and coloniser was parasitic. It was the purpose of colonisation - to exploit. Hence why so much was taken (land, resources, people, industries, etc).

I see no issue in stating this and I do not know why people as Ghostgeek get agitated by this fact. Not like he is a coloniser. I understand though that someone who was taught to be proud of colonisation will feel uncomfortable by these facts stated. Like a child will feel about learning his beloved Santa is not real.

I also do not get why people like you, the13th, are so submissive and believe that those from the colonies needed the colonisers when everything shows that it was the opposite.

I haven't lied or used any misinformation.
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The13th
The13th: Whisky, right this moment, I am having meeting with bunch of Indian colleagues. I do that everyday 7 days a week for 5 years now. I dont have all the historical facts, I am busy working with them now. In August one of them will visit me and I have setup free accomodation for him.

I just cannot imagine if the British never was there, how we will have a similar and common education to be able to communicate and work with each other.

Then the outcome for India will be very similar to those unfortunate countries that export cheap manual labour worldwide. Countries that seems to be run by French, American, Netherland, Spanish in the past.

You know, if the Brit gone to Sourth America, Inca empire most probably will still be with us, except they will have a British like education, constitution, legal system, administration, sure with probably 45 Trillion price tag. But unfortunately some spanish turd get there first.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:


“… I dont have all the historical facts,”
- I already presented a few. And why don’t you when information is readily available in modern times? I mean if anything supporting your opinions exist.

“… I just cannot imagine if the British never was there…“
- Maybe your imagination needs historical facts and less submissiveness.

“… Then the outcome for India will be very similar to those unfortunate countries that export cheap manual labour worldwide.”
- Do you have anything that can support your opinion here?

Everything points to India, prior colonialism, as doing better economically than how they were left. They started back from a low state after Independence to what they are now. Drafting their own constitution, having literacy champagnes, etc. Clearly their accomplishments came from themselves.

“… if the Brit gone to Sourth America, Inca empire most probably will still be with us”
- You must not have known how the Brit treated Amerindians and Indigenous people. Doing the same massacring and enforcing Christianity. You also must have not heard of a country called Guyana. And also that the British came to South America and was defeated.


You’ve admitted to be ignorant on the topic, yet continue to run your mouth haaha I’m not sure what further you want. Noone will know everything but at least present an opinion that’s informed to make this stimulating.

Know what I mean? I like the topic and it’s all fun watching Ghostgeek get worked up and you’re funny but you’re talking nonsense, mate. Kinda cringe too.

I would like someone to come up and do a fact filled rebuttal on my statements. Not “whisky I don’t know but I feel…” or a “whisky don’t say that, I’m uncomfortable, talk on muslims pls”. Some straight up mental stimulation back and forth.


(Edited by WHlSKY)
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The13th
The13th: OK Whisky, after your expert presentation of facts I now know how horrible British are and I will never talk to them again. Ever. Horrendous this Brit.

See, Whisky, that is not right, you cannot point to some massacre or mistreatment of indigenious people at some corner of earth, or looting of wealth, and turn a blind eyes on all the good things some British governance brought to the colony.

I am no expert on just about everything on earth, but it does not prevent me to live on earth and get alone with people and comment on things. My parents live under British rule, they never said anything good or bad about them, thats just about the highest praise any government can get .... "nothing ..they were here ...nothing good or bad". But surely its better than where my parent come from ....otherwise why would they come here?

The key word ...Better.
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The13th
The13th: Oh by the way, although no expert on anything British, my parents have survived them without being massacre. When them Brit left, no they dont chop indeginious people into 20 pieces. And no we dont uprising and kill them all. Today, 60 years after Independence, the indigenous people has transformed from head hunter to corporate leader.

Several years before leaving, governors from various lands get together and trash out an Agreement on how the future government would be formed, carefully detailed in an 19xx Agreement, stored in British Archive, and even this century there are people who gone back to British Archive to check the Agreement in case of dispute arising. Although no expert on the Agreement, from the many despute later, I can see the originator of the Agreement try to protect disadvantaged land or people from being disadvantage in the new independent country. Proper consideration.

When the time came, they dropped their flag and gone quietly.

I never see French having an agreement with Vietnam, or Dutch having Agreement with Indonesia. Comparatively, our handover is almost a textbook example of colony to Independence.
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The13th
The13th: Phew I survive the Brit, now bring on Klingon.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
“OK Whisky, after your expert presentation of facts I now know how horrible British are and I will never talk to them again. Ever. Horrendous this Brit.”

-You’re a big boy to decide what you wish to do. I wouldn’t recommend it. It is good to know the truth on Colonisation and the dependency the Colonisers had. These were men of the past though. I prefer to deal with each Brit ( or anyone) individually as they come. Colonisation isn’t a proud or respectful part of history.

“ ….and turn a blind eyes on all the good things some British governance brought to the colony”

I gave you the opportunity to present things to back your statements. I don’t believe colonisation was necessary for the colonies. There could have been an exchange of ideas without it. However, it was very necessary for colonisers. Their countries could not survive without it.

—————

Why does supporting your opinions with facts and information require being an expert? It only requires you to fact check your viewpoints. There were a lot that had errors. You must always test your viewpoint not on your emotions but mainly on the facts presented.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
The13th your parents’ neutrality has no effect on the effect Colonisation had (and in some cases still has).

For how the British were forced to exit India, you should read up on the massacres and the fight to remove them. The most famous tends to be the US’ American Revolution.

.
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The13th
The13th: Look, I hardly interested in checking facts I have no interest in. Brit? No way. They gone without a trace.

My grandparents survived them
My patents survived them
I was born a year after they left.

I just have a ball park understanding of them. But this ball park understanding is such that, I think they are not bad. If I am somewhere in the Galaxy and need help, I might call them again.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
The funniest thing to me is I did not call for any attack on modern Brits, but only speaking on the atrocities of colonialism has lead your mind there. And has lead Ghostgeek to lash out.

This is History. Britain (like other powers) were brutal, disgusting with colonialism. Often this is ignored because we have to cater to ‘feelings’ but truth is that image of ‘Civilised taming Barbarians’ is not reality. And I don’t care about what makes who uncomfortable, I’m going to keep presenting my view and back it up by showing that the ‘civilised’ were anything but civilised.
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WHlSKY
WHlSKY:
Your statement: “Look, I hardly interested in checking facts I have no interest in..”

And it shows.

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