Chinese expansionism (Page 2)

Jukesy Momma: So what do you think the outcome will be? Will the Ukraine become a part of Russia again?

The giant midget: Eventually nothing lasts forever.
Putin will stop to exist one day.
Ukraine will split someday part European Union,other Russia
problem is that the small majority wants the be EU
They want the benefits but don't want to be controlled

Angry Beaver: Hard man that Zelensky!

The giant midget: Zelensky reminds me a lot and I will say that both men have tons in common and became best of friends.
Ukraine President Zelensky was and is in the arts and entertainment industry,,I think he was a actor.
Canadaian Prime Minister Trudeau was and still is a drama teacher / queen

Both love the photo opportunities,the camera lights and the childish attention that they demand from the rest of the world.
Both queens will receive some global awards from United Nations in the near future

kittybobo34: I was under the impression that the NATO membership was denied for fear of Russian paranoia. Ukraine was asking , Nato was in a holding pattern. There are rumors that Putin is dying, possibly cancer. Also rumors that his military is inches away from a coup, should he not die fast enough. But, as yet Russia keeps expending lives and equipment for little to no ground..

The giant midget: Ukraine has been attempting to join EU way before Putin name comes to be known.
Nato members the vast majority of them don't want Ukraine as a member because they don't bring nothing to the table as a contribution specifically military hardware, they always had a great dependantcy on Russia for protection alongside its natural resources.
Ukraine wants the ability to be a member of both the EU and Nato monetary benefits and still keep full control of their business and financial institutions
They are reluctant to let go of their freedom to obey EU mandates
Can't have your cake and eat it too
Things are shared

kittybobo34: True,, I think they will get there though. Once this war is over they will have to deal with their Azove? battalion, Sounds like it does have a strong Nazi influence.

The giant midget: It appears to me and several other people is that the EU community has been rejecting Ukraine into the membership is that they don't even want to consider their application due to corruption and enormous ties to nazi influences.
I am not defending Putin at all but the Russians have always claimed that Ukraine is the 2nd Nazi uprising and is to some degree that Russia has invaded the country
It could be just rumors like Putin is dying or whatever
When such rumors about Ukraine housing nazi groups the west quickly knocked it down claiming that the British intelligence community had 100% assurance that Ukraine had so such organizations
This British intelligence community were the same people that claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction

kittybobo34: lol good point about the British. Given that that battalion has been fighting Russians for many years, it seems likely that they would have adopted the symbols that the Russians fear. I do not see a dictator, or a philosophy of extermination of other races in this group that implies the Nazi code.

kittybobo34: Giant,, you gotta give Iraq some credit in fooling everyone that they had nuclear weapons. They did it on purpose hoping that would scare us away.

The giant midget: Kitty
How could Iraq have nuclear weapons capability when the USA had supplied them with weapons arsenal and financial backing as a nation to have the means to build those massive of weapons destruction.

Let's look at fact
The Soviet union/Russia were financially recuperating from their defeat in Afghanistan.
So no way of back Suddain

Iraq was locked out of the middle east into just buying basic hygiene products let alone military hardware.

International financial institutions were forced into having to freeze Iraq banking accounts, just like Cuba,Angola, North Korea, Venezuela etc

You can fill a flat tire without air source
How where these WOD make and powered?

kittybobo34: Giant,, Iraq was sending out hints and clues that they had a secret weapons facility both in nukes and poison gas. The British and the US fell for it... Didn't quite work out the way Saddam had hoped .

The giant midget:
But the Americans and the Brits claimed to have proof and evidence of such weapons.
They showcased daily on the media the site where they were at
Yes it didn't work out as Saddam planned.
The world was forced to chock Iraq financially and closed all foreign food supplies to that country.

"" either you are with us or against us """

Just imagine if China was to stop exporting every single item it manufactures to the world for 1 month.
Just imagine if Mexico was to stop exporting their agricultural products to the world

ouweknar75: Interesting thread, a few comments from my side.

Agree with the Giant that the Ukrainians never "had" nuclear weapons. The weapons were merely on Ukrainian territory, but the chain of command was firmly Russian. Would it surprise anyone to find out thet the Soviet Union, although a family of nations in name, made sure that the nuclear command chain was overwhelmingly manned by ethnic Russians?? When Ukraine became independent the officers and men manning the nuclear sites simply refused to swear allegance to the new Ukrainian state. Tells you everything you need to know about who controlled those things.

Even if the Ukrainians had managed to actually get their hands on some weapons, it still wouldnt have helped them, as they didnt have the launch codes and keys. Sure, in therory they could theoretically have rebuild the weapons, but they simply lacked the industrial base and expertice for that. Crucially thet also lacked the expertise to maintain said weapons and delivery systems.

Also, Russia never signed a treaty promissing to respect Ukrainian sovereignty, what they did sign was a memorandum (the so called Budapest memorandum to be precise). This may seem like a nitpick but it really really matters as a memorandum, unlike a treaty, is not a binding agreement. Its the difference between asking a company for an estimate versus actually purchasing something.

This is not to say that Russian behavior vis a vis Ukraine is morally acceptable, but these details do matter in international affairs.

ouweknar75: As foir the whole Weapons of mass destruction story, I have always been convinced that the US and UKL knew that Iraq didn't actually have any. After all, if the goal is to prevent weapons of mass destruction to be used, then the last thing you do is attack the psycho who holds them.

Notice how countries who actually hold WMD like North Korea were never invaded.
In international affairs its always a good idea to not simply listen to what people say, but also to look at what they actually do, as usually actions speak louder than words.

Sir Loin: WMD make a good excuse to invade a country Ouweknar but every country invaded by a superpower in recent history has oil wells or at least large untapped reservoirs of the stuff.

The giant midget: I had no idea that WMD were ever a excuse to invade another nation, I am joking.

Other good reasons is the killing of children in schools / orphanage
Killing of innocent elder civilians.

My all time favourite is the violation of human rights and freedoms of speech
China is exempt from such actions

ouweknar75: @Sir Loin Countries go to war for many reasons, but never from the foodness of their hearts. There is a lot of talk about democracy, human rights and obligation to protect, and that all sounds very noble indeed. But once again if you look at what countries do, rather than say, the image changes dramatically.

The "Free World" is all about democracy, guarding countries souvereign rights and protecting civilians in the case of Ukraine, but when the country doing the invading and slaughtering of civilians is called Saudi Arabia, not only do we get very quiet about it, we provide them with the weapons to do it.

I am firmly in the camp of the real politics and think that countries act to protect their own interests. In this sense I see absolutely no difference between the US and for example Russia and China.

What keeps amazing me still is the ability of doublethink many people are capable off. They get all hot and bothered when the Russians commit warcrimes and kill Ukrainians, but seem to accept the fact that we killed 800.000 Iraqis as simply "unfortunate things that happen, but we had the best intentions".

Grozny, Fallujah, Aleppo, Raqqah, Mariupol, Mosul.

All these cities have been utterly destroyed by war. In the case of Grozny, Aleppo and Mariupol the press puts the blame on ruthless Russian tactics and indiscriminate use of firepower.
In the case of Fallujah, Raqqah and Mosul the story is suddenly about the "intransigent defenders using civilians as hostages" "precisions strikes" and "brave attackers suffering through a horrendous urban battle". Yes, these cities are just as destroyed and its civilians are just as dead.

kittybobo34: 800,000 Iraqi's ? are you counting all the ones killed by different religious sects in bombing each other.

kittybobo34: As far as WMD's I think Saddam had a l big part of the blame. He was presenting evidence that he had them in such a way to make everyone think it. Bragging about poison gas and nukes.. He figured the USA would back off against such a threat.

The giant midget: Again Kitty
I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly the highly intelligents agencies of the USA and the British gatherings information about Iraq and its leader start their showcasing every day in the
Media, the locations of the secret WMD nearly 15 months prior to Iraq refusing the entry of United Nations inspectors looking for evidence of genocide of tribal groups in North of the country.
It was the USA and British that started the rumors and Saddam went along with it.

ouweknar75: The Giant Midget I agree, that is also how i recall the events. One should also keep in mind that according to acounts Sadam was not denying to have WMD as a way to balance against regional rivals like Iran and Syria. He didnt imagine the US was actually serious about this as an excuse for invasion as he didn't believe the US was dumb enough to try something like that.

George W Bush and the Neocon "thinkers" enter the chat.

The giant midget: Ouweknar75 thank you for the acknowledge on my weak old memory.
Sudam imo just went along with the show,it somehow benefited him to show the strength of the Iraqi military to his people for the time being.

kittybobo34: I wish we had just left Iraq after taking Saddam. That mission drift problem again.

ouweknar75: That is a very US centric way to view the world don't you think? It would have limited US casualties maybe, but would not have done much to stop the slide into civil war and mass dead for Iraq.

Maybe the lesson to learn from Iraq and Afghanistan isn't : "get out quickly before our own casualties start mounting" but rather "starting wars is easy, but bringing them to an end isnt, so don't start wars unless you really really have to".

The mistake wasn't staying in Iraq, the mistake was starting that war in the first place.