What is Donald Trump's Greatest Failure? (Page 6)

Echolegacy
Echolegacy:



Plenty of people objected strongly to what happened at Gitmo, but the Right Wing press, still emboldened by the hysteria brought about after 9/11, drowned out the protests from people who were condemned as not being "patriotic" enough. Plus, it worked. There's nothing like a calamity like 9/11 to boost a president's ratings but the boost fades away once reality sets in and people start to THINK clearly again. Similarly, Trump's much ballyhooed high approval ratings are already declining because people are starting to use their brains and not just yield to fear and hysteria. The people detained at Gitmo were the victims of newly crafted laws by George W. Bush's lawyers which dictated, among other things, that the accused could be deprived of the of the right to counsel and have their sentences run indefinitely until the President decided to have them released. However, the argument ran that since they were foreign born suspects and not American citizens, any and all laws which demanded humane treatment were ruled as not being applicable to these individuals. What that means, despite their lawyer's arguments, is that not only could they be tortured, but that they could be detained in prison indefinitely or until such time as the President no longer felt them to be a threat. Civil libertarians were outraged but, as you might expect, their objections were silenced and they were accused of "giving aid and comfort" to the enemies of the United States. Under those circumstances, the defendants' advocates were the objects of much hatred and numerous death threats. However, the President's lawyers at the time, John Yoo and Richard Addington, ran roughshod over any legal objections until they had crafted a series of laws that greatly enhanced the President's ability to impose punishments and penalties that made a mockery of human justice and which gave the President powers that far exceeded the normal limitations of his office. Dick Cheney, as well, Bush's VP at the time, was a strong advocate for this sort of thing and was one of its most vocal and most influential proponents.



Bush & Cheney were also advocates of "extraordinary rendition" which made it legal to take suspected terrorists to locations outside the legal jurisdiction of the United States to friendly nations who had no compunctions about helping us "interrogate" those suspects with the most brutal methods possible. The methods employed are illegal under our system of justice which is why it usually took place outside the United States so that the appearance of "legality" could be at least nominally maintained. It would seem logical, if not inevitable, that Donald Trump would LOVE this sort of thing if he could somehow override the legal and moral objections to it. Trump is on record as being a strong advocate of torture despite the proven fact that it is ineffectual as well as excessively cruel. However, as he is both cruel and brutal by nature, should he be re-elected there can be no doubt that he would try to implement such measures because with some people---presumably his base---it would be enormously popular. You should never underestimate how cruel and bloodthirsty some people can be. Its shocking but that is the human condition.



Yes, they practiced torture at Gitmo, much to our eternal shame, and they even had a polite euphemism for it which fooled nobody: "enhanced interrogation" which makes it sound innocuous but the methods they used to get intelligence would make your blood run cold. The fact is, the methods of interrogation as one might expect yielded nothing of substantial value and despite its cruelty and ineffectualness it can hardly come as a surprise to hear that Donald Trump LIKES this sort of thing and remember that he's the one who suggested murdering the families of suspected terrorists in order to reduce the number of bombings and attacks on the West. There was some resistance to Trump's relish for using torture, even if it didn't work, which leads one to conclude that whatever Trump might be he is also a sadist which will surprise nobody who has seen him in action. The best evidence suggests that not only is torture ineffective but it has the effects of strengthening the resolve of the victim and morally degrading the torturer. What is more, the use of torture by the United States only gives license to our enemies to use the same brutal methods on any of OUR soldiers, if they are captured during a conflict or a war. So, from a purely practical standpoint the use of torture only has the greatest appeal to sadists who don't care whether or not it works because they LIKE the very idea of torture even if its ineffective because some people ENJOY watching other people suffer which is a sad commentary on human nature in general.



Watch what people say in response to this post because I have posted my objections to torture in the past and I was inundated with repeated assertions that people LIKE the idea of torture because they think that it serves some useful purpose when in fact its just an outlet and convenient pretext for their overt sadism, not to mention the personal attacks that I had to endure because my "patriotism" was called into serious doubt. Something similar happens whenever I write something about my opposition to capital punishment because that, too, appeals to some people's bloodlust which is a topic for another post.



As for the rule of law---is there any viable alternative?



ECHO


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chronology
chronology: Echo, whaooooo there on this Gitmo subject. First off did the United States behave at Gitmo any worse than any other country in the world? No absolutely not. Look at the story of France in Algeria or Great Britain in Ireland or Russia in their conflict zone's and you will see America has a better record than any of them. America is exceptional in it's treatment of prisoners, better than anyone else.

Ask any long serving U.S.Army Officer and he will tell you if you are a illiterate poor person from a Third World country then you are never going to be treated with any respect anywhere in this world.

I can totally assure you that had any other country had the opportunity to abuse people in a place like Gitmo they would have done so a lot more and a lot worse. And you are unlikely to have heard about such abuse. So America can still be seen as better than anyone else.
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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:



To Chronology:


You make a good point with which I do agree but actually, I was referring mostly to the behavior of our government under George W. Bush, and yes, before the rule of law was circumvented by people who should have known and done better, the United States ALWAYS had a much better record with respect to the rule of law than most other countries. I think you got the mistaken impression that the United States had always acted as it did under the Bush administration, but as you rightly pointed out, our record was exemplary when it came to respecting the rule of law in those circumstances.


So, with a small qualification, I wholeheartedly agree with your post; it was just my emphasis upon the Bush administration that gave you a different impression and I should have made that clearer from the outset.



ECHO



(Edited by Echolegacy)
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Patriot act War on Terrorism .
Rule of law is Dead . American as well as forien Citizens. Can just be Killed No Trilal Needed . Like that Irianian General.and the hundreds no one hears about
Left right president don't matter
That ant the Rule of Law .I donno people seem to have short Memories and be Told what to get outraged about
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Angry Beaver
Angry Beaver: Hi Echo, thanks mate. But I can't claim credit for that one, I found it on the net whilst searching for something else, cheers Glad you liked it though
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: This Is What I don't Understand .
The US is Doing No Different than any other Country.
Its Not The Point . France Isnt Claiming To Be The World COP and going around reinforcing It .
Unlikely to hear about What type of Devil Worshipping what ever would even say that . They Jailed the Bloke for Treason. He thought everyone should know about it other wise no one would of never herd about it .Cos they were Whipped up into a Orgy of blood lust. And the orders came right from the Top. Chaney and bush . That some reckons they deserve Gushing Praise for. Flat out Lier
You Cant play Cop if your going to act. The Same way as the people you call Criminals.
Some people don't know Right from Wrong
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theHating
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale:

Yeah thats Right Think your better than everyone else
Fakes
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The giant midget
The giant midget: Brian old mate . Yes you are correct when you said that USA isn't any different than any other country
As I said before
, there are nations that keep things on the down low side never a rousing any suspicions nor any attention with their illicit acts. There are nations that are just sheep in wolves fur , tagging along with there allied mates in the hunt ,with a excuse of any wrongdoing as a duty of belonging, Like the bridesmaid that never want to marry, then there are nations that make sure that all the spotlights and cameras are focused on them .
Mate next time you out and about in a tourist destination ,you can spot my fellow Yankee brothers and sisters instantly by their attitudes, their rudeness and their attire in huge crowds
Gees they will kill their own grannies just to be on the local news
My fellow Americans love the attention and they make sure they get it
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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:

To the giant midget:


Whenever I traveled, which I used to do quite a lot, I always shuddered whenever I encountered some Americans, who, as you pointed out, can be loud, vulgar and extremely narrow minded about experiencing a new culture. I'm not pleased to admit it, but your assessment of them is correct though I hasten to remind you that not all of them are like that---me included. One thing that extensive travel has taught me is how to NOT behave when I am abroad. You learn, soon enough, that cultural relativism is common and not necessarily a good thing. Problem is, many Americans have the mistaken notion that life is worth living ONLY in the United States, which is xenophobic, ultra nationalistic bullshit. Only people with limited experience as world travelers would fall into that trap. It took me some time to realize that but that's where the phrase "the ugly American" originated in the first place.


ECHO
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prairwarur
prairwarur: Hello all,

I see a lot being mentioned, and I do realize some have empathy for terrorists, but a quick scan of history will inform you of how treason and terrorism is handled. Correct, some countries do far worse than what happens in America, but there were agreements and treaties signed that are to dictate the rules of war, ie. Oslo, Geneva...
ol.
One said agreement is that an army is to be in a recognizable uniform, but we have learned some countries and ideologies refuse to abide by the Oslo Accord. Vietnam was the first real example that comes to my mind. America was introduced to "gorilla warfare", a new concept in the tactics of war.

I'm so please we serve a President who understands these things,
and who also understands there are power hungry people that will kill millions of innocents to retain power and control. Namely, Communist Red China.

I'd like to address more of the comments, but I lack time now. I'll just leave you with some of my own research. In chat I told someone about tainted products from China, and you'd think we've been living in parallel universes, because she had no idea. I love my beloved Black Lab to tainted Chinese dog treats. Do YOUR own research, people! I don't trust anyone to do MY research for ME.

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prairwarur
prairwarur: MAKE CHINA PAY?

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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:


Explain to me what you mean when you say that, "I do...have some empathy for terrorists." How do you feel about the Nazis whom trump called "very fine people"?


I would really like to know.



ECHOI
(Edited by Echolegacy)
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Thats true Quick Scan of history will show Countries Support Terrorists.
Funny how all thos air drops of Weapons droped by the US were used By Isis
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Nicotina
Nicotina: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Yeah thats correct . Ask the American forfathers
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prairwarur
prairwarur: Nico, so they say, but don't forget there is a code of honor and ethics among true warriors and freedom fighters. There is a total opposite ideology behind terrorism as there is freedom. Make no mistake about that! Terrorists fight for dominion, not freedom. Freedom fighters fight an honorable war for freedom - to set ALL men free, not just some.

IMHO
Shalom, Prair
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Nicotina
Nicotina: War is not honourable.
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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:

If you're talking about terrorists whose efforts result in the deaths of innocent men and women and children, then we have vastly different conceptions of what a "freedom fighter" is. In my experience, those who kill innocent people in the name of "freedom" are just murderers, plain and simple and all the semantic double dealing won't change that fact. Euphemisms that disguise the essential bloodthirstiness of so-called "freedom fighters" is one of the great misuses of political language.


Read Orwell's brilliant essay entitled "Politics and the English Language" to remind yourself how language can be enlisted in the aid of murderers who wish to put a heroic gloss on their acts of random butchery.


ECHO

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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:

"War is not honorable," eh? Tell me something else to consider besides tired and shopworn platitudes.


ECHO
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Nicotina
Nicotina: You don't have to consider it, echo.
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Don't get too carried away with Honor and Dignity. Modern wars are bankers wars and they play both sides .
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prairwarur
prairwarur: Fairy, can you describe a typical war tactic these farmers had? Our forefathers? I doubt any of them were trained in war as the British who were about to attack them.,
America's army were farmers and peasants. Each man grabbed his shotgun and ran to Lexington for the "face off."

Nico, freedom is honorable though, and I, like many others believe what my forefather did say ... "Give me liberty of give me death."

shalom, prair
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Nicotina
Nicotina: I think it is unlikely that freedom exists.
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Echolegacy
Echolegacy:



Too late, Nicotina: once said, it can't be unsaid nor forgotten. You might just as well try to weave a rope out of sand or coin the faceless wind, to paraphrase J.L. Borges.


ECHO


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