Should we allow people who are genetically male play in women's sports? (Page 11)

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While transgender cyclist Austin Killips is entering women's races and dominating them for sheer pleasure, a trans cyclist in South Korea is entering women's races to prove a point. That point being that biological men have an athletic advantage over biological women.

https://themessenger.com/news/transgender-cyclist-enters-wins-womens-race-to-make-point-about-fairness-in-sports

freedomfirst1797: Unless we restrict women's sports to biological women, then men will eventually dominate BOTH divisions in many sports that involve strength and stamina.

It isn't hard to imagine that some men who failed to get drafted by the NBA might start "identifying as women" and take jobs in the WNBA and become the superstars in that league. How will Brittney Griner feel when her spot is taken by a transwoman, and she is sitting on the bench? Will Megan Rapinoe feel differently about trans rights when she loses her spot playing women's soccer to a man?

But it isn't the female superstars who are most at risk. They have the luxury of virtue signalling for trans rights, while still keeping their jobs, It is the lower tier players, who will be very easily replaced by a mediocre male players.

If you think these things are impossible, then think again. None of us could have imagined a man becoming the best women swimmer in the NCAA just ten years ago. Yet it happened, and more bizarre things will happen as the woke mob keeps pushing for more.

That Korean transwoman cyclist is right. They SHOULD have their own division, and compete against each other. She says it is about "honor"... since there is no honor in winning unfairly.

bonzono: seems pretty obvious to me.
the male/female segregation in sport is no longer an appropriate one.

abolish it, do something else, get over it and move along.

freedomfirst1797: Obvious to you perhaps, but not so obvious to those people who are a lot smarter than you. In other words, "most other people."

Do you even realize WHY we have separate sports divisions for men and women?

If we were to take your suggestion and abolish "sports gender segregation" then the men would win 100% of the contests in sports requiring strength, stamina, or endurance. And the women would win all the sports requiring nurturing, fashion sense, or empathy.

You are really making a very stupid suggestion, which only shows you have no idea what sports are. The only "something else" that might work would be to abolish all athletic contests. Either you will need to do that, or just hand the men all the medals before the contests even begin.

bonzono: lol. there you have it. the whimper from the mentally bereft rightwing trolls that represent usa conservatives.

actually plenty of alternatives have been proposed - finding that out would require you read faster than a 3 year old struggling with 'see spot run'.

i love how het up you just got about it then. look at you, trying to flop your big ol' peeny around there and pretneindg you're something more than the little scrap of entitled, ignorant, bigoted detritus that you actually are.

sweetness, learn to read, calm the heck down, and stop demonstrating exactly why the rest of the world is in stitches at the intellectual incompetence of the hysterical, petulant murican rightwing

sport aint rocket science hun. They're so simple, half the douches that play it are lobotomised by their own sport, and still manage to perform adequately.

freedomfirst1797: My mother.... who was a very smart person.... once told me "The mistake you always make is that you assume everyone is smart. Well, some people are very stupid, and there is nothing you can do about it. So, just make your point and move on, because you can never change those people. They completely lack self awareness, and have no idea how stupid they are."

So I probably should take her advice.

But before I do, I will correct you once again, even though I know you won't understand one word of this. The "rest of the world" are in stitches LAUGHING at you woke loons. They aren't buying this "anyone can be a woman" concept especially when you combine it with "I cannot define what a woman is, because it is impossible to define."

The rest of the world knows the difference between men and women. Even most of the people in your native Australia know it.

Biology isn't rocket science. Athletic contests are won by the strongest, the fastest, and the best at physical things. This normally means "men" because they are biologically stronger, faster, and better at physical things, and if you eliminate separate sports divisions, then the men will win almost all of the events. But you woke loons want to ignore science and biology and pretend it doesn't exist. Which, I suppose is your right, but it makes absolutely no logical sense.

This doesn't mean that a very strong and fit woman can't beat a very weak and unfit man. Because it is very easy to imagine that circumstance. But, sporting events don't work that way. The strongest men compete against each other, and the strongest women compete against each other and we end up with meaningful and relevant contests. Putting it plainly, if you pit the strongest men against the strongest women in events that require strength, then the men will win 100% of the time. Because they are provably stronger.

We don't just segregate sports by gender, we also use OTHER biological metrics to create fair contests. This is why we have weight divisions in boxing and wrestling, and why we don't permit grown men to arm wrestle with little boys. We even impose age segregation in some sports. In golf, for example, we have a division for older golfers, because the younger ones have a physical advantage, and we have different tee positions for men, women and children to make the game more competititive.

If there was "no obvious need" for separate divisions, then please explain why there are no transmen taking scholarships, medals, or opportunities away from biological men? This entire issue is confined to women's sports, because when men pretend they are women they have a distinct physical advantage over biological women. But when women pretend they are men, they are giving themselves a huge disadvantage when competing against actual men.

This is just science, biology, common sense and logic. And if you can't understand this there is no way I can make you any smarter. There really is no hope for you. You will continue to live in your fantasy world, and all the sane people will continue to laugh at you.

bonzono: "The "rest of the world" are in stitches LAUGHING at you woke loons."
actually no, the rest of the world is wondering why you're using words even you intellectual dont know the meaning of.

what's 'woke' sweetums? what does it actually mean?

Oh, and I can assure you that the world is sniggering at the clusterfk that the usa conservatives really are, and at their incomprehensibly vapid orange messiah, being dragged through the courts.

sweetheart, this little dummy spit you're having on my screen is obviously cathartic for you - here's the very sad reality. Trans gender is not going to go away because your pathetically fragile sensibilities are wounded. They're not going to go away at all. Ever.
I'll give you a moment to rant at the screen while you've read this....

Here's the reality, my little red-faced spluttering bigot.
Trans is here to stay, and people like you will drop off into oblivion and leave the rest of the world to scratch their heads and wonder why you and people like you got so wound up about it - the same as we do now regarding say, votes for women/indigenous - both rights are so fundamental, and so accepted you're regarded as cringy and pathetic by taking issue with it.

But yes, good boy, you stayed in school long enough to learn there are biological differences. you get an A!. shush now, because that's pretty much irrelevant to the point.

"If there was "no obvious need" for separate divisions, then please explain why there are no transmen taking scholarships, medals, or opportunities away from biological men?"
ah here we have it. the good ol' redneck call to arms 'Dey gon an took mah jawb!"

So the actual problem is that trans people 'take scholarships' and 'opportunities'? fascinating, because hormones dont increase your intellectual ability - in that aspect at least. I can explain why they 'take' these from biological men - because the biological men are inadequate by comparison. That has nothing to do with the trans people taking HRT, it's simply that you and people like you are mediocre, and you want to blame someone else for being below par.

The topic of course, is sport.
You simply WANT to get greasy with a bunch of blokes on a field in very short shorts - i get it. you dont want women fettering up your field while you 'accidently' fist the opposition in a heavy duty sweaty scrum on the field. yup. sure. I can see it upsets you.

As I said, and as you're demonstrably far too stupid to grasp - there are alternatives to segregating on the basis of sex. As I said, you're far to inept to understand what they are, despite them being discussed by people whose intelligence make you look like a gibbering dancing cockatoo. As I said, you COULD read about them, were you not so obviously unable to read anything not pushed by your pygmy cabal, who really have failed at being anything of purpose in the 21st century, and think that it's everyone else's fault, especially 'dem dam trans!, ermergerd!, git mah gun maw!"

"This is just science, biology, common sense and logic."
heh, as if you have the slighest clue what any of those words mean (along with 'woke', 'liberal' and 'left' - you kids sure are allergic to a dictionary).

Science is that people are different.
common sense is that everyone deserves a right to play sport competitively.
logic is that you find a way to make that happen.

if splitting by gender doesn't work, then.. duh.. do something else. Alternatives exist.

it's... that... fecking... simple.


stop your pathetic little rightwing bleating, inform yourself and try to be a functional, useful member of the human race rather than a backward, bronzeage gibbering idiot unable to accept his own failings and trying to pin them on everyone else? yeah? think you can do that, little man?

carry on.

freedomfirst1797: There really is no hope for you. You completely lack any self awareness. You spew nonsense, and keep insisting it is fact.

I did my best to help you. The rest is up to you.

bonzono: That's the spirit.
Know when you're beat.

If that's the best you can do....
then it's no wonder the usa conservatives are such a diabolically cringy and inept lot.

Good on you for trying - suggest you refer to dictionaries and basic reason, every once in a while ... if your poor ol' ticker can cope with it

..it's gotta kinda suck knowing that your vehemently held dogma will be regarded with a kind of... 'huh.. wtf?' by generations hence...

freedomfirst1797: You are completely unaware that the entire world, including most of your fellow Australians, shake their heads and laugh whenever you freaks say "there is no difference between men and women.... gender is an optional choice, and not a scientific fact."

You probably should check into that X and Y chromosome thing.
You might learn something.

bonzono: I didnt say that you myopic gimp.
lol, an uneducated redneck thinking they can talk about science - adorable.


actually most of australians want tolerance and acceptance. it's just how the polls turn out.
Fun fact, most americans do too

"You probably should check into that X and Y chromosome thing"
it's hilarious you think that's actually gender.

silly you - but.. you're a redneck, the bar is low

Adam Southworth: As I understand, most people are content with the transgender group's right to "identify" how they like, but don't support this group's right to trespass on women's rights, spaces and well-being.

bonzono: nor do I.
what you think are 'womens rights' seem more likely to explicitly exclude people who you - for no intelligent reason on, have decided you dont want to include.

what rights might be affected exactly?

and.. are you happy to remove rights from TG people?

Adam Southworth: I don't "exclude anyone". I recognize that males and females are different in countless ways, and these differences make a difference to women's right to a separate identity, their sports and well-being, their safety in changing rooms, toilets, prisons, etc.

Males and females are different. Males produce sperm, females produce eggs; males have XY chromosomes, females XX chromosomes; the principal male sex hormone is testosterone (males have roughly 15X - 20X their testosterone), the principal female sex hormones are estrogen and progesteone; males have roughly 45% more non-fat body mass than women, 50% more muscle mass in their legs, and 75% more muscle in their upper-body.

There are differences between the sexes, bonzono. You are wrong to ignore them.

bonzono: it's glorious when a redneck tries to school me in highschool level biology - as if it's made them an authority on the subject.
sweetheart, usa has VERY substandard education compared with the rest of the western world. What you clearly regard as entitled education is something we get before we turn 17.

but.. what you have taught me about is your inability to distinguish between 'sex' and 'gender'.
Which is interesting, since this is actually the topic at hand.

let me know when you can show me you know the difference

Adam Southworth: I don't know who you respond to here, bonzono. I am from England and I was privately educated at some of the best schools in the country.

This is just the start of the differences between male and female. In light of these objective differences, I find it irresponsible and dangerous to pretend that the hard differences between males and females are convention and enculturation.

bonzono: oh? my mistake... the chump previous to you was a murican.


though. despite the bragging.. i notice you've still failed to tell me the difference between 'gender' and 'sex'.
i kinda thought you might.

by all means, continue to miss the point entirely.

Adam Southworth: Respectfully, the issue is whether biological males should play in female sports, where objective differences between males and females are crucial. I don't need to talk about the gender conventions. You've diverted from the core issue, which are the objective differences which advantage males and disfavour females.

bonzono: " don't need to talk about the gender conventions."
you do if you want to talk about 'rights'.
sorry.. it's just how it works.

you dont get to remove rights from one group, and hand them over to another.

Adam Southworth: You say I "remove rights from one group, and hand them over to another". You must be aware that you do just that if you allow males to take women's rights.

"Either transgender rights; or women's rights" is a false dichotomy. We have no need to deprive anyone of rights if we have a transgender games, transgender changing rooms, etc.

If you'd frame that solution as "depriving a group of rights", then I don't think there's any common ground here, bonzono. Unfortunately, what you want will destroy women's sports and reduce the well-being and safety of women.

I don't have the time to argue this. I'm on holiday in Greece. I want to use my free time to get things done, not in futile debates about whether reality exists.