Comparing Roe v. Wade to Alabama's heart beat abortion law (Page 2)
The flying Squirrel: Im not getting into this whole Debate except to say some people want to Justify there Lasciviousness . But correct me if Im wrong Super Esquire Isnt Church and state supposed to be separate. Die was cast a long time ago
SandraLee62: yes church and state shall be separate. I love how he wants to
castrate women but not men.
Super Esquire: I'm not for castarating anyone, women or men. Castarating a female would be like cutting out her womb, or sterilization. Not permitting abortion, however, is just letting nature run its course.
There has been a lot of good points brought up here, though. Going to take awhile to respond to it all
Super Esquire: A few disparate comments to all addressing cloudygreys interesting comments:
**Cloudygrey, some states might well use brain activity as the benchmark for viability, other than heart beats.
**I think you will see adoptions increase greatly if these heart beat bills get codified into law, and faith organizations becoming involved in orphanages to a much greater extent. Government program aren't the end all be all.
**men have consequences if child is born.. Most often custody is awarded to mother, and father gets child support payments, although not always. Under the law, the courts will incarcerate delinquent fathers. Many fathers prefer abortions, so they won't be on the hook financially.
**also, miscarriages aren't abortions. Women are never on the hook for any dead babies. From one relgious standpoint (subjective), miscarriages are the spirits attempt to merely obtain a physical body and move onto the next world, or estate. Under this religious view, not all spirits desire to experience mortality but need a physical body or tabernacle, nonethless, to empower them in the next life, after ressirection (when we receive bodies back). Not up to humans to preempt this process or play god (by abortionism) determining who lives or dies. All of this is subjective religion, though. Objectively speaking, doctors, never women, are on the hook, under these laws. Even if the women purposefully aborted her baby thru strenuous exercise, or work, etc.
Super Esquire: Flying squirrel, abortion is a separate issue than separation of church and state. But briefly, Church and state, like our two eyes, must not cross nor splay, but focus in concert on innumerable points of our national destiny. Doing so lets our society advance to greater degrees, further than monolithic societies.
The flying Squirrel: National Destiny , Sorry don"t make Sense to me , yes it does but i will keep that to my self ,
The flying Squirrel: Super I wouldn"t get too carried away with the Polierizing politics that"s going on there , Its Only going to hurt your "national Destiny" In the long run
kittybobo34: My thought, we consider a person dead when the EEG brain scan is flat line, by the same token when the fetus has a brain wave, it should be considered a person, and that is somewhere around 26 weeks,
Super Esquire: Kitty, that's a cool thought. That a question of fact though, bc hospitals, don't they keep brain dead ppl alive all the time, in comas? Or no? I think if the heart stops beating your done for. That's why they do that electric shock to try and shock it back into pumping.
kittybobo34: Seems that most of the antiabortion rhetoric is based on religion. American law is based on legal independence from religion.
I personally do not feel I have any right to tell some other woman what she can or cannot do with her body.
Super Esquire: **I hear you kitty, that might make a convincing argument, on the brainwaves.
** As far as the religion observation, sure many religious are prolife, but the argument boils down to fairness and golden rule, that of do one to others, as you'd have them do to you, etc. The same argument that Lincoln made against slavery. As you wouldnt be a slave, you wouldnt ne a master. As you wouldnt be aborted, you wouldnt abort.
**Further, as far the bodily autonomy argument, everyone could make that overbroad bodily autonomy argument. Like Corporations--what, you have no right to tell us what to do about corporate bodies! or People who don't want to be vaccinated; thats my body, leave me be! or Ppl who dont want to pay taxes or child support. You can't commandeer my body to force me to pay child support.
kittybobo34: All good points Esquire. Concerning the Golden rule, you do realize that of all the actual pregnancies very few actually make it to fetal stage. It becomes a point of when do you accept personhood on the fetus, which is why I mentioned the brain wave status.
kittybobo34: With the pill, and the morning after drugs, you would think the whole abortion issue would fade away.
Kekraptico: It does, Kitty, not just pills, but general care for pregnant women and sex education, family planning, etc, all go hand in hand towards reducing abortion rates. It is a well-known fact that making abortion illegal does not reduce abortion rates, it actually increases the rate of unplanned pregnancy, too.
Im really not sure where people get the idea that we have some moral obligation to unborn kids, but science makes a distinguished definition about the development of the fetus and the risk/value judgement. No one single doctor should be jailed on the basis of "killing children" if the overall result is in agreement with their oath to protect life. Im not sure where people get off saying doctors aren't upholding their oaths, but that is incorrect.