Cuba (Page 3) chronology: gronch. You say Canada did not get involved in Vietnam? Just tell folks here where Agent Orange was manufactured. I do not criticise the U.S. for Vietnam. There are no 'pleasant' wars anywhere, any time. All sides in Vietnam found themselves in situations they would not want to be in. Be it a bicycle bomb that slaughtered civilians in Saigon, or the destructive power of a superpower trying to manoeuvre among civilians and not cause unnecessary casualties. Anyway gronch, just tell us where the Agent Orange was manufactured.  gronchbove: Chronology, honestly, I don't know much about Agent Orange. This is what I found: "Agent Orange was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense primarily by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical. It was given its name from the color of the orange-striped barrels in which it was shipped, and was by far the most widely used of the so-called "Rainbow Herbicides". I will make these two posts: US manufactured Agent Orange. gronchbove: "The U.S. military, with the permission of the Canadian government,[126] tested herbicides, including Agent Orange, in the forests near the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick for three days in 1966 and four days in 1967. Soldiers working on the base at that time were advised that the chemicals would have no harmful effects on them, to the point they would spray each other with the chemical to cool off." On July 12, 2005, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of over 1,100 Canadian veterans and civilians who were living in and around the CFB Gagetown. The Canadian government rejected the lawsuit." Source: Wikipedia. gronchbove: I actually don't doubt you. You got Ford, you probably have Dow and Monsanto up in Canada. Monsanto is called Monsatan by some. It makes evil GMOs also. The Canadian government offered a one-time payment of $20,000 to the Canadian victims and then when the victims sued, your government said the victims had no evidence. I call that a War Crimes. chronology: There is no such thing as a pleasant war gronch, and the U.S. is no worse than any other country. But like you say, this thread is about Cuba. gronchbove: The US claimed that Middle Eastern nations were committing War Crimes by using "chemical weapons." Isn't Agent Orange a "chemical weapons?" Yes, thus the US had "declared itself guilty of committing War Crimes in Vietnam." Right? The US is an Evil Empire. The "everyone does it argument" does not work.  SWlNE: Concerning Agent Orange, the use of it by the US on the Vietnamese and what these Vietnamese had to go through and currently going through is no fault of Canada. Not sure why Canada was mention concerning that war crime. By the way 'there is no such thing as a pleasant war', but there is such a thing as war crime and atrocities. So I beg to differ on that line that the U.S is no worse than any other country. And the pulling of Canada in it. Canada did not direct the US to do anything. That's all I had to say on the Agent Orange conversation. If you want to really assess if something was an atrocity, imagine if it was done by Russia or China. Would you still hold the view that 'there is no such thing as a pleasant war', or will you be upset by what was done? Think on it. Think also if you would've let it go had it been done to your own country. I get why persons view Agent Orange as a war crime. As a citizen, you had no say on the matter and it wasn't in your control but still it's nagging to deny the direct atrocity done on these persons due to some patriotism. At the end of the day, wrong is wrong, no matter what country a person belongs to. gronchbove: True. Slaughterin, we had all hoped that the "United Nations" would created an objective, fair, just system where all nations are judged equally. Sadly, that has not happened. Let us return to Cuba. Did Cuba rely on the UN or Russia for assistance? Communist Russians saved Cuba and stood up against oppression, not the UN. SWlNE: The League of Nations fell and that had similar goals as the UN. There's no real system to implement the decisions. The UN has no real power. Right now it has condemn the embargo multiple times but it's pointless. At the beginning Castro turned to the US but they were not given the recognition or meeting with the president. Then I believe the Soviets approached them with economic trade. That helped them a lot. gronchbove: Yeah, for some reason, the nation-state seems to be the highest form of government that really might work. That is why I think, we are likely to move to "Regional Blocs" as opposed to One World Government. I see China and Russia using Cuba to open more doors in the Western Hemisphere. SWlNE: China is there in the Caribbean/Latin America and all around but I don't think Russia has a deep footing. China's influence is through the construction industry and other economic things. They're both allies but I must say very different in their approach. China can seek no political ties solely economically and leave. Can be a good thing, can be a bad thing if you consider that the local construction companies can't compete with the cheap labour China offers and plus, they don't build strong buildings imo. Lots of cutting corners. gronchbove: Yeah, China is the economic angle. Honestly, most nations want business partners, not someone to tell them what to do. Russia has the political angle. Mostly UN and old Communist bureaucracy. The economic angle for Russia is Gazprom. Russia could make oil and gas contracts with Cuba. Russia is #3 for oil production, China is #4 for oil production. Plus, Russia needs to boost its economy. And food stuffs. Cuba can sell tropical food to Russia. SWlNE: Yes but still any business relationship should be balance and the local companies may be more expensive than a Chinese company but the local companies employ locals while the Chinese companies tend to bring their Chinese workers with them. True, Russia has a stronger political angle, I'm not sure how they can fit into the Caribbean/Latin American field. There are countries with oil production but BP and other foreign countries have already laid down themselves there. They should consider Russia, yes, Canada is one of Cuba's top exporter, so that relationship should be strengthened. gronchbove: I agree. Slaughterin, Russia and China understand "Capitalist Exploitation, right?" Yeah, China employs Chinese, so that would not help Cuba much. But after the embargo, Cuba might need more "technical help, right?" Captain Canada: USA relationship with Cuba in trade dealings past 15 years or so has been pushed by the Canadian government, Obama administration visiting Cuba has been arranged by Canada . Canada has a vast amount of interest in Cuba's natural resources to provide with financial support , drilling equipment and professional personnel within the crude oil and natural gas industry Canada is a major player within the tourist industry into the island Canada is a front runner in infrastructure and construction therefore making the Canucks a favourite before the Russians and Chinese in all fronts gronchbove: Good. My point has been this: Canada should be independent and develop its own foreign policy. Cuba is a great example, you freely trade with the nation. On this point - Cuba - the United States has a made a "grave error." Wise Canadians do not follow others who make errors. Captain Canada: Ok mr Filth you're saying that local companies might be more expensive but they employ locals so why bother with local business if it costs more and for sure it will double the time of duration of project gronchbove: Correct me if I am wrong, Slaughterin .... But I believe Slaughterin is saying that "while China does not have the same baggage as the Anglos, the fact that they bring their own Chinese workers" means that the economic benefit will not be as high. This actually leads to another question I have: "Many nations complain of Capitalist Anglos trying to force their cultures on other nations. China has argued that it will respect the cultures of other nations. Will China fall into the same trap as it tries to support its Chinese workers overseas?" SWlNE: "Captain Canada: Ok mr Filth you're saying that local companies might be more expensive but they employ locals so why bother with local business if it costs more and for sure it will double the time of duration of project" ________ Because as previously outlined, local construction companies provide employment for local people and hence the money paid to the local construction companies goes back into the local economy. It is not a matter of it being vastly expensive, it is that China can negotiate a much lower bid because they use cheap materials and their own cheap workers. These workers do not spend in the local industry, they send their earnings abroad and leave when the work is completed. There has to be a balance between the two. At least negotiate a certain percentage of local workers that should be used on the projects - given their skill sets, also monitor the Chinese companies' treatment of their own workers and more importantly the materials should meet a certain standard. (Edited by SWlNE) Captain Canada: From my personal experiences when hiring local labor or tradesmen, or contractors projects kinda drag into infinity Not long ago,I was order by my superiors to oversee a project that had issues in meeting it's delivery dates on time in a small town Clearly it wasn't lack of materials or equipment as they were supplied by same company throughout other subdivisions around the country It wasn't due to craftsmanship or experience from the locals it was the "" if I finish everything today,what am I going to do tomorrow "" attitude It took nearly 15 months for local labourers to build 92 houses,I had in one case, rooftop materials sitting idle for 3 days because local installer went fishing I decided to just bring new tradesmen and contracts from within 90km away ,we build 234 houses in 27 months Yes locals are good to just work for the residents and businesses in their own community gronchbove: Canada, I see the same problem with "government workers." They have no incentive to provide speed or quality. It is called "incentives." Write a contract that has a stiff penalty if it is not complete on time. Have the construction firm place a "deposit" with the organization that can be seized for non-performance. Provide a bonus for early completion. Captain Canada: I oversee and control dozens of different contractors,tradesmen and delegate work schedules for a smooth operation within the new housing industry In short words whatever happens on worksite either good or bad I am responsible If someone unfortunately gets hurt or dies on my watch and it's due of lack of supervision or safety violations I could face jail time and my personal estate be confiscated by the government to compensate the victims | Politics Chat Room 53 People Chatting Similar Conversations |