Palestine (Page 2)

SWlNE: Are you done?

jeannie8106: hahaha, yes FoG, I am done with the Jews question. If I missed any other question let me know. Next I hope to respond to the historical issues re WW2 but later.

SWlNE:
Okay, first, thanks for outlining your belief in detail.

Then it is safe to say that your belief is that jews worldwide will not be automatically given salvation by your Jesus but by only accepting your Jesus (even if that acceptance is last minute). This can be said for non-jews as well.

Let us reason this out your belief:
1) The current state of Israel was formed by God or by your God's intervention and is (your) God's people.
-In 1948 it was the statehood decision by the UN. There is no mention of divine intervention by this organisation or claims that it was moving in accord to a prophesy. There was no recognition to your God. It was an act by mankind. Even at this point there was no recognition of Jesus being the messiah/Christ. Or an overall repentance by the jews.
-The present state of Israel does not carry out its laws in line with the bible.
-The present persons occupying Israel are not by lineage (or blood).


Truth? It looks like madness. Setting up an army against your people to slaughter them (Your quote: ""I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle," ) and then in the end appearing as a saviour to slay said army you set out in the first place. Not only that but all pointless for a piece of land considering that it also the Christian belief that everyone (the good ones who accept Jesus as the Messiah) will be heading to heaven anyway.

jeannie8106: Fog, you are a tough cookie. In short:
1. Paragraph 1 - yes.
2. Your reasoning regarding dividing up the territory after WW2 in the Middle East is factually correct as modern history will show, but biblically when you go back to the days of Abraham, God gave that whole area, including Syria, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and part of Saudia Arabia to the Israelites. The UN at that time consisted of the Americans, Europeans, Asian, African, and other countries (which I cannot remember right now) that agreed with the Americans and English to divide that territory according to the borders THEY deemed fair but not according to God's borders. It is my opinion that the western world who were made up of largely Catholics, Lutherans, and Protestants, did not acknowledge God in their resolution of the formation of Israel because they were generally anti-Semitic and the piece of land they gave to Israel was not valuable to them. Israel was a desert. Dry as a bone. The Israelites, blessed by God, have turned that little strip of land into one of the largest flower producers in the world, one of the largest producers of oranges, etc., and they have a huge natural gas reserve. And their small army kicks butt, albeit with a little help from their friends, and God's hand.

What have the arabs done with the lands given to them? Since 1948.

You are correct on point two. They have yet to bring God and His teachings back.

I don't understand point three. Are you referring to the descendants of the 12 tribes?

FoG, it will be madness when Jesus returns. The army that Jesus slays will be the anti-Christ's army. That army will be a global army, i.e. UN, who will be under the command of this anti-Christ. The religions of this world will be a global religion. This is only conjecture, only God knows the who, when, and what. We do know the why. Also, there will be a remnant of the 12 tribes who will survive and accept Jesus as their Messiah. Unfortunately, this will be during the tribulation where millions of people will die at the hands of the anti-Christ.

I am curious, what do you believe FoG?

SWlNE:
Jeannie, I'd not give religion any authority. And more so a book which makes reference to a talking snake and a talking donkey. This is a serious matter and not some game. Religion has caused too many problems in the Middle East. Stating that 'God said this land is ours and we can kick you out and fight for it' causes problems. There were people who were already occupying that area. It was not a lifeless area and uninhabited.

You're saying this is all by God's hand yet he didn't lift a finger in WW2. No WW2 was attributed to an act of man, now the same men allowed and enforced that that land be given to a specific group it suddenly becomes an act of God? He is so powerless that right now he can't even create peace in that area? And unjust enough that he doesn't make arrangement for other persons who are displaced?

What have the arabs done with the lands given to them. -They've lived on it. They've made use of it. What you wanted, some capitalist venture? Land is for living on.

On point three I was referring to you linking the current persons occupying Israel to those who were part of Israel in ancient times.

I'm not saying it'd be 'madness when Jesus returns'. I'm stating that there is a level of mental illness in there: supporting and making an army fight against a group of people, to slaughter them, then presenting himself as a saviour and destroying said army. Sounds like a child playing with toys.


-What I believe? I believe that persons believe in a lot of nonsense and it affects everyone else who want to simply live. Politics is already irrational by itself.

SWlNE: I hope you don't take this as a personal attack. I'm only commenting on the statements because if you watch what is said and the storyline itself from the religious texts, it appears that your god is simply a trouble maker. Someone who has purposely set up a lot of trouble amongst mankind.

jeannie8106: Hello FoG. Thank you for your views. I do not take opposing views as personal attacks. My response will be posted before the end of this weekend; today is Friday for me.

SWlNE: It's Friday for me too. I saw an interesting article today and thought of you. It was an article on the female Soviet snipers, called Soviet Killer Supreme by Eugene S Robinson. It's a nice read. Outlining the efforts of Soviet women in WWII. Not only were they helping medically but they were on the battle fields too as snipers and pilots etc.

jeannie8106: Fog, I just finished watching the video and reading the article on the Russian woman sniper. It was very touching for a multitude of reasons, also she died so young and heroically. I appreciate your bringing this to my attention. Russia certainly paid a very high price during WWII. We are both aware of the price paid by everyone in that war, but right now it is about Russia and they did pay dearly. FoG, no one will understand why humans do what we do to each other, whether it be during war, or in our daily lives. I beg to differ with you that God is a troublemaker. My response to that comment will be posted soon.

jeannie8106: Is God a trouble maker? No. He is the trouble revealer and He doesn’t side step the filth but rather plunges in with all that He is, inviting us to grab hold of Him. The darkness is still there but it cannot overcome the light. If you want to know why, it is because He invites, He does not demand. Sometimes we wish he would demand, to be honest. But if He demanded in anything He would have to demand in everything, and that He will not do. We all have free will.

God knew that whenever the moment in time was right His physical entry into this world’s realm would be met head on by the evil one resulting in the horror of death; brutal, ugly, senseless, putrid death. It would end with Him embracing death head on in one of its most horrid forms. No matter how much pain you have ever experienced; be it through a tragedy like the loss of your own child, spouse or dearly loved one; God’s pain is infinitely greater because His love is infinitely more. And He came, and He comes, and He will always invite us to choose Him and by so doing to choose the way of life rather than the way of death.

FoG, is God a trouble maker? No! Yet He immerses Himself into the world we have messed up inviting us to immerse ourselves in Him and His Word.

I copied some of the text above from a study I found on line. I think it explains God's role for our world more clearly than I could have done.

Jerusalem belongs to Israel. The Temple Mount is the location of the Jewish Temple and does not belong to Muslims. Jerusalem has become a political tool. Thus, the irrational actions by all sides regarding Jerusalem. As the Bible says:

Zechariah 12:1-3 "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it."

Also FoG, returning to the original issue - Palestine: There is no such thing as a Palestinian because there was no country or peoples called Palestine or Palestinian. Palestine was a name given to that area that was derived from the original dwellers - Philistines. There are no known descendants of the Philistines.

SWlNE:
Ms. Jeannie, you've copied and pasted a lot but thee is no mention on how influencing/causing an army to fight a group of persons, then coming after to kill off that army and appear as a Saviour, can not be considered a trouble-making move.

It is as if Person A, makes Person B fight Person C, then Person A jumps in to fight Person B to appear as a saviour for Person C.

What do you want to call the original occupants of the land? Did they the Palestinians sprout from thin air? Brings to mind the 'a rose by any other name'. They were there before the influx of European Jews (and others who came after). Consider too that it was only after 1947 there was no country named Israel or people called Israelis.

jeannie8106: FoG, my apologies for not getting back to you on your queries. Am working on my response.

jeannie8106: FoG, the army of Jesus Christ when He returns will be made up of all His saints. They will return to fight Satan and those who chose to follow him in the oppression and execution of the people in the world. Satan will demand that all bow to him as a god, and he will demand that everyone be issued a number that will be imprinted on their bodies. If one refuses to accept this number, they will not be able to conduct business, or purchase any goods. Eventually, he will start to execute all who believe in Jesus Christ. This is the evil that Jesus will return to defeat. FoG, not sure if I understand your first paragraph.

The original occupants of the land have no descendants. They were the Philistines. If you recall, the Philistines and the Israelis fought many battles, and ultimately were defeated by David and his slingshot. The UN divided the land and gave the Israelis a portion, just a tiny sliver, of land next to the Mediterranean. They also offered land to the arabs of that area but they refused.

God is not a troublemaker FoG, He is our God, our Creator. Turn to Jesus Christ as your savior and God will lift the fog of doubt from your heart and mind.

Daddy uk: I want to know this...why the preoccupation with "Palestine"? It doesn't exist, it never existed as an autonomous self governing entity in history....who cares? Why not discuss Syria, Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan , ISIS? Why not discuss US/UK military action or Russia or China? Why not focus on state executions in Saudi Arabia or Iran? So many other issues...

SWlNE: I want to know this... why don't you fúck off if you're not interested in the topic? Go forth and create one on Syria, Darfur, Iraq, etc. because this current one is on Palestine. And if you're unaware of what Palestine means or refers to then do some private research.

Daddy uk: Palestine does not exist. just screaming calphatic moslem arabs on their antisemitic high horses. in 1964, the PLO made its first territorial claim. how come it excluded Gaza, East Jerusalem, Judea or Samaria? how come it did not seek one inch of land from Jordan or Egypt?

Daddy uk: and when did MOSLEM ARABS start to embrace the term Palestinians? Until Israeli independence in 1947-48 the term was almost exclusively used in reference to Jews as opposed to Arabs...that is instead of referring to people religions groups were defined as Palestinians and Arabs?

Daddy uk: and back to the Gand Mufti....how come he wasnt the Grand Mufti of Palestine?

SWlNE: Your irrelevance to the topic is noted.

Daddy uk: well..i ask you straight questions and you have no answers...what has happened to the Arab Christian communities in ramallah, Bethlehem etc since moslem governance was established?

Precious Pea: What is an Arab Christian community?

Daddy uk: articles 1 &2 of the palestinian proto constitution reduces palestine and palestinians to nothing more than a stage post to a united moslem arabia? just caliphatic expansionst colonialist nazis like IS

Precious Pea: Dunno what that is

Precious Pea: And you didn't answer my question LOL

Daddy uk: The truth since 1964..is that "Palestine" according to palestinians is "any place controlled by israelis"...if the same place is controlled by jordan, egypt etc..so called "Palestinians" don't give a shit...the whole game is the continuance of the 1948 war of independence by other means