Communism - Workers of the world unite! (Page 4)

LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>> because people hoard money for power.

Oh yes. No power hungry people ever existed in the USSR....

>>>That way, we remain equal.

AKA we're all poor together.

>>>But it's not exactly equal.

All animals equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

>>>The harder you work, the more you produce, the more you produce, the more you keep.

It's also about need and ability. Those who have ability are indebted to those in need. If I can stomach a 12 hour shift, and you can only stomach a 4, then I should accommodate to your needs and work the remainder of your shift for you.

Those who work less, get more- because they have the greater need. Those who work more, get less- because they don't NEED to work less.

>>> he can give away 8Kg again this time leaving him 7Kg to do whatever he wishes to with it.

Sadly, money was abolished, as was trade. The farmer cannot hoard his additional value, since this is contrary to communism, and is forced to give it away anyways.

>>>Russia fell to economic collapse because of economic sanctions on them in 1991.

Ah yes. 1991. 3 years after they begged for assistance because of their economic collapse of 1988.....makes sense....

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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Every so called Communist society that I can think of has been State Capitalist.

It is not rocket science.It is very very simple.

As private enterprise is generally illegal.ALL Capital (currency) is collected by the State (Government) .

Therefore they are nothing more than state Capitalists.Deny it all you like because it challenges your ideal of "Communism".

It is a basic fact and I challenge anyone here to prove otherwise.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Hello Communist/Stalinist.

How is that imaginary Major going at that imaginary university?

You obviously can't stand by your beliefs or even the very links you post to this site or you would answer these basic questions.I ask again.
I would like you to explain what happened to the Vanguard at Kronstadt in the uprising?

"Lenin's USSR was regarded the most democratic and "free" society in history."

You still have not told us about this so called Freedom in a stalinist society and what happens to people who don't want to participate?

"Stalin's approval were always constantly high, he was legitimately elected throughout his period,"

How? When nobody else could run against him?

Your silence is deafening when it comes to this BBC student link that YOU provided.In this very link that YOU provided it says Stalin killed 10 million.Are you now denying that?
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Marx hoped that the STATE would eventually fade away as people became more enlightened. Unfortunately, that never happened.

I believe the Soviets gave the masses stock in their companies. Most of the people sold them for food or regular merchandise.

The concept is good; how to achieve the goals is the challenge, of course.

I believe that all around the world - the government is 99% of the problem.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: The problem Marx had in the mid 19th Century is that he was dealing with theory not practice.
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Outbackjack, yes and no.

All systems have inherent flaws. The flaw of Capitalism is actually the same as the flaw in Communism: "lazy bureaucrats who produce nothing ordering around the productive workers."

For Capitalism, the lazy bureaucrats are priests, bankers and politicians.

For Communism, the lazy bureaucrats are politicians.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Communism may have been all theory in the 19th century but now, in the 21st century, the world has also experienced the practice. I believe it's called the Gulag.
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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gronchbove
gronchbove: The world needs something new.
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Communist_
Communist_: Vanguard at Kronstadt:

Is regarded as the last battle of the Civil War. An uprise by non Bolshevist, but the uprise was unsuccessful and they lost.


Lenin's USSR was regarded the most democratic and "free" society in history:

I said Lenin's USSR. Lenin is not Stalin -__-. All the area that was under the Tsar's rule was given its independence. Lenin in 1917 pushed the Otts from Armenia, 2 years after the Otts mass murdering the Armenians. Lenin then gave homosexuals and the entire LGBT community equal rights and fay marriages were allowed. Over 98 years before USA allowed this equal right. The Chechen Muslims were freed, huge mosques were built back in these areas, since the Tsar had Islam outlawed.


"Stalin's approval were always constantly high, he was legitimately elected throughout his period,"

How? When nobody else could run against him? :


You do realize that Stalin wanted to come down from chairman role 4 times, the last being in 1952. But the rest of the Politburo rejected his move to step down. Kalinin's letters are strong evidence for this.



our silence is deafening when it comes to this BBC student link that YOU provided.In this very link that YOU provided it says Stalin killed 10 million.Are you now denying that? :


I told you to check the information on Lenin. I've already debunked "Stalin killed X" in earlier posts. But I'll save your time, I print screened the info I wanted you to see. I've posted the image on my profile here, since we can't upload images on this forums. You can check it there...
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Still no word on this imaginary Major you are doing?


"Vanguard at Kronstadt:

Is regarded as the last battle of the Civil War. An uprise by non Bolshevist, but the uprise was unsuccessful and they lost."

I assume you just googled that.

The sailors at Kronstadt were tired of the repressive regime and before their uprising put a list of demands up that they had voted on:


Immediate new elections to the Soviets; the present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be held by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda for all workers and peasants before the elections.
Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.
The right of assembly, and freedom for trade union and peasant associations.
The organisation, at the latest on 10 March 1921, of a Conference of non-Party workers, soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd District.
The liberation of all political prisoners of the Socialist parties, and of all imprisoned workers and peasants, soldiers and sailors belonging to working class and peasant organisations.
The election of a commission to look into the dossiers of all those detained in prisons and concentration camps.
The abolition of all political sections in the armed forces; no political party should have privileges for the propagation of its ideas, or receive State subsidies to this end. In place of the political section, various cultural groups should be set up, deriving resources from the State.
The immediate abolition of the militia detachments set up between towns and countryside.
The equalisation of rations for all workers, except those engaged in dangerous or unhealthy jobs.
The abolition of Party combat detachments in all military groups; the abolition of Party guards in factories and enterprises. If guards are required, they should be nominated, taking into account the views of the workers.
The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.
We request that all military units and officer trainee groups associate themselves with this resolution.
We demand that the Press give proper publicity to this resolution.
We demand the institution of mobile workers' control groups.
We demand that handicraft production be authorised, provided it does not utilise wage labour.

This is hardly revolutionary stuff.These are basic human rights being asked for.These sailors were called the vanguard of the revolution by Lenin.Without the sailors at Kronstadt the Russian revolution may never have happened/

"Lenin's USSR was regarded the most democratic and "free" society in history:"

So why did Lenin kill the sailors at Kronstadt when they asked for democracy?

"I said Lenin's USSR. Lenin is not Stalin "

So did I.It was Lenin and Trotsky who killed thousands during the Red Terror.

"You do realize that Stalin wanted to come down from chairman role 4 times, the last being in 1952. But the rest of the Politburo rejected his move to step down. Kalinin's letters are strong evidence for this."

How is this democratic? A bunch of pigs arguing amongst themselves? No sorry confected argument.I am sure in North Korea they tell their people the same kind of thing whilst denying the people their chance to actually choose their own leader.

"I've already debunked "Stalin killed X" in earlier posts."

You posted a link claiming that he killed 10 million people.
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Communist_
Communist_: "The sailors at Kronstadt were tired of the repressive regime and before their uprising put a list of demands up that they had voted on: "

Evidence?

NB: The Capitalist nations crush our demands all the time...Hell, they crushed blacks rights movement several times!

Also what the sailors are doing is a "Counter Revultion" if you know the basics on Politics, this leads to Revisionism... And in Marxism, thats fatal, it can kill the socialist country.

".It was Lenin and Trotsky who killed thousands during the Red Terror."

Evidence?



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gronchbove
gronchbove: Look how Blacks have been mistreated by the Capitalists!

Nelson Mandela - smart Black man - put in jail in his own country because he revealed the oppression of his people.

We need to support "anyone who stands up to oppression!" Millions were able to speak due to the Kronstadt Sailors fighting back!
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Communist_
Communist_: Exactly.

People hail Mandela as a hero, which they should. But the media doesn't tell you that he was a proud communist! He proudly admired Che Guevara and Joseph Stalin!

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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Doesn't say much for Mandela then, does it.
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Nelson Mandela actually cared about the people. Whom do Capitalists care about? No one.

Capitalists care only about money.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Che Guevara: “A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.”
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Che Guevara: “If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City…We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims…We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.”
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Capitalism: "The only good Indian is a dead one."

British against the Mau Mau: "We bashed their heads in because [derogatory term] can't think."

Torture of Steven Biko...

Abu Ghraib ....

Holocaust ....

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ....

These statements are repugnant. War is hell. None of us should support war. The Cuban people wanted to be free and independent. Che Guevara and Fidel Castro fought for freedom. Does a man have the right to defend himself? Yes.

Che Guevara was training to be a doctor.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Che would have done more good if he had become a doctor. Let's not forget that a million and a half Cubans fled to the United States to escape the instruments of Che Guevara’s repression, many across the Florida Straits where the odds of survival are no better than two out of three. How many Americans went the other way?
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Ghost, How many of those Cubans were guilty of abusing their own people?

How many Cubans stayed?

Ghost, if the US fully lifts the sanctions, I will bet you that there are millions who will visit Cuba from America, right?

Do you really want us to go into Cuban history?

OK.

In 1898, the Cubans and Americans tossed out the Spanish dictators. The Cubans thought they would be free. No! No! No! The Americans put in horrible dictators, like Batiste.

In the 1950s, the Cubans finally lived their dream of being free that has been started in 1898.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Are the Cubans free or did they just replace one dictator with another? Cuba's legal system limits civil and political rights, such as the freedoms of assembly, religion, and expression. Civil and Political Rights in Cuba have been limited in efforts to silence any dissent against the government. And what was all this for? So the Castros could become obscenely rich. Forbes alleges Castro has a personal fortune of $900 million. Former Cuban officials insist Castro, who travels exclusively in a fleet of black Mercedes, has skimmed profits from a network of state-owned companies for years. Sounds like another grubby dictatorship to me.
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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gronchbove
gronchbove: It is funny that you mentioned Americans who joined Cuba during the revolution? What country was Che Guevara born in?

Personally, I believe that a home-grown leader is preferable to a foreign dictator.

Fidel Castro said "NO" when it needed to be said.

Cuban health care is supposed to be very good.

And if Cuba is so bad, why did the US just reopen their embassy?

I think the Cuban people truly love Fidel Castro.

How much is the British Royal family worth? or the Vatican?

It could be $Quadrillions, right?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I'm no expert on Che but as far as I know he came from Argentina. As for Cuban health care, it didn't save Hugo Chávez, president of Venezuela.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: THE Royal Family is said to be worth a staggering £44.5billion, but brings in £26.4billion to Britain’s economy.
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gronchbove
gronchbove: Some say Hugo Chavez was "irradiated." Notice how right after his UN Speech, calling Bush the Devil, he got cancer? Don't they have scanners in the United States?

Once again, you answer your own question - If the Royal Family "brings in that much to the English economy" which I doubt, then the Castro can be said to do the same.

Did you know what HSBC is reportedly worth ‎US$ 2.67 trillion in 2015?

Do bankers rule the earth? Yes. I rest my case.

lol
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