Communism - Workers of the world unite! (Page 3)
The Kid_: Outbackjack is famous around here, known for his trolling.
I've seen him in multiple threads, really bigoted.
You shouldn't bother anymore, @communist_ you're wasting your time.
LiptonCambell: I think it's obvious me and Jack have no love lost for each other....you can often find us at each others throats over issues....
That been said; He's spot on here. Great Job Jack. Don't like Communist get away with this nonsense. Lol 100 people killed by their government....riiiight....
Outbackjack: I am famous apparently.It is the first I have heard of this.
Communist I think I have been fair.If you want to make excuses to avoid answering basic questions then I will have to assume that you have a very weak argument.If this is your political belief then you need to be able to stand by your very own words. Afterall it was you who posted this thread trying to tell everyone how great Communism is.
Or are you having doubts now you have read my obvious logic?
Here are these basic questions again:
I would like you to explain what happened to the Vanguard at Kronstadt in the uprising?
"Lenin's USSR was regarded the most democratic and "free" society in history."
You still have not told us about this so called Freedom in a stalinist society and what happens to people who don't want to participate?
"Stalin's approval were always constantly high, he was legitimately elected throughout his period,"
How? When nobody else could run against him?
Your silence is deafening when it comes to this BBC student link that YOU provided.In this very link that YOU provided it says Stalin killed 10 million.Are you now denying that?
Your silence is deafening on where you are studying this Major in politics?
gronchbove: How many have the Capitalists killed?
3 million in Africa
3 million in Vietnam
When the Brits controlled China, someone said millions died during a famine
2 million Indians?
2 million Arabs? Iraqis, Afghanis ... Libyans.
How many dead babies due to abortion? 50 million or so?
Capitalism has left a death toll all around the world.
This fact cannot be discounted: "The Communist will punish an evil banker, while a Capitalist will not."
Stalin was brutal.
LiptonCambell: I think that's misleading. Capitalist countries do not take the reigns of peoples lives the way Communist ones do. If my government doesn't supply me with food stamps, I can still go out and earn my food honestly. If Communism, however, does not supply you with food.....well, thats it. You're dead.
gronchbove: LiptonCambell, are you sure about that? In the United States, people have been put in jail for selling fresh milk. The Capitalists want you to buy a permit to sell lemonade. Have you tried to start a business in the Capitalist nations recently? They want you to pay all this money before you earn a dime.
Jim Rogers and Marc Faber have left the Capitalist countries for Communist China.
Communists tend to be very controlling. I agree with you on that. I don't like that either.
The world is becoming more Oppressive, despite which system rules.
LiptonCambell: Hey, i'm not suggesting capitalism doesn't have its flaws- it absolutely does....i was merely saying that, for capitalist countries, especially on the issue of famine you cannot put all the blame on the government. Their policies prove that food distribution is rarely part of their job, except in extreme circumstances- they leave that to private business's. Communism insists that this is wrong, and insists it's the governments job.....but then people have starved....
If communists believe that distributing food isthe job of the government, and food isn't distributed, then, clearly, the government has failed.
If capitalists believe distributing food is the job of private enterprises, and food isn't distributed, then, clearly, private enterprised, and not the government, has failed.
It's like blaming the government for not supplying you housing....if I lived in a society where the government needs to supply housing as part of their job, and they didn't, then that would be a failure on the governments part....but if the government didn't play that role? It wouldn't be.
Not everything needs to be on the shoulders of mommy and daddy government....unless they promise it will be...
gronchbove: LiptonCampbell, I see you are from Canada. The English culture - England, Canada and the United States - have created this "The government is your Nanny State." Right?
It pretends to be your best friend controlling your existence from cradle to grave. But is the government your Nanny? No. Is it your Mommy? No.
Can the government invest great new gadgets? No.
The Nanny State is an illusion to avoid responsibility. When the politicians can say that "they had your best interests at heart" it is difficult for you to revolt. It is called soft oppression.
Now, the Nanny State is becoming more oppressive than Communism.
LiptonCambell: umm im Libertarian....I believe government should be drastically reduced....you're reading too much into my nationality...
gronchbove: My comments weren't specific to you, it was just about the Anglo state concept.
I am somewhat Libertarian too. I think that Libertarians want freedom. Neither Capitalism nor Communism are supportive of our freedoms.
The problem is that the Nanny State "promises you free stuff," but as Libertarians admit, "nothing is free."
Outbackjack: Capitalism has killed many millions.I do not dispute that.
"This fact cannot be discounted: "The Communist will punish an evil banker, while a Capitalist will not.""
The Communist will become the banker.
Communism is nothing less than State Capitalism.
gronchbove: Most Communists don't really understand banking. They are unlikely to become the banker.
I favor a system where criminals are punished - whether royal, priest, bureaucrat, Pope or Banker. We don't have that system today.
Communist_: Communism is a state-less, class-less, and where money means nothing, society.
What you lot are talking about is Socialism.
In a socialist country, the government does not run the banks, for example take USSR and it's biggest Moscow bank, it was nationalized where us, the workers ran it. We had the shares in it.
Socialism is only a temporary stage. The objective is to de value the currency and remove all classes to form a communist society.
(Edited by Communist_)
gronchbove: Communist, but no society has gotten rid of money completely, has it? Money is simply a store of wealth. Even communist nations will have something representing wealth: a factory, house or cow.
LiptonCambell: I don't get that either....why get rid of money? money is merely a representation of value- so we don't have to debate at the grocery store that the shoes I made is worth 2 dozen eggs and 2 litres of milk...to make matters more confusing, what if I offer a service, and not a product? Like a masseuse, secretary work, or legal representation, ... with nothing to represent the value of their job in order to exchange it with, they would be unable to exchange anything, and would either have to abandon their career, or starve.....
(Edited by LiptonCambell)
The EU tried to 'socialize' currency with the Euro..
The euro (sign: €; code: EUR) is the official currency of the eurozone, which consists of 19 of the 28 member states of the European Union: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain. The currency is also officially used by the institutions of the European Union and four other European countries, as well as unilaterally by two others, and is consequently used daily by some 337 million Europeans as of 2015. Outside of Europe, a number of overseas territories of EU members also use the euro as their currency.
Additionally, 210 million people worldwide as of 2013 use currencies pegged to the euro. The euro is the second largest reserve currency as well as the second most traded currency in the world after the United States dollar. As of August 2014, with more than €995,000,000,000 in circulation, the euro has the highest combined value of banknotes and coins in circulation in the world, having surpassed the U.S. dollar.[note 18] Based on International Monetary Fund estimates of 2008 GDP and purchasing power parity among the various currencies, the eurozone is the second largest economy in the world.
gronchbove: Yeah, Lipton is correct. Marx discussed Capitalism quite accurately. It has a destructive long-term bent based on INTEREST, not MONEY. We all need money. The Soviets had 5-year plans. I know the Soviets engaged in more bartar, but in 1988, the Soviets could not keep bartering and asked for money from the Capitalist Pigs.
The problem is not MONEY, it is making everything in your nation about money. The problem is rewarding the wealthy and punishing the poor. Sadly, we still have not created a system that fully incorporates these requirements.
Communist_: Just like Gronchbove said!
"The problem is not MONEY, it is making everything in your nation about money."
The temporary stage of socialism is to de value currency, by that I mean money is no longer the important factor, because people hoard money for power. So if money is de valued, it's merely a piece of paper that's used in trade between one another.
That way it eliminates the hoarding so people can not become powerful from being rich. If they can't become powerful they can not move into a higher class. That way, we remain equal.
gronchbove: Communist, I agree with you on the "control over money."
One problem is incentive.
How do Communist systems reward hard work?
The Capitalist use money as the reward.
Communists still need creativity, innovation and productivity even while minimizing money.
Communist_: In a Socialist country, people get equal wage to promote social equality.
But it's not exactly equal. There's a slight difference. The more hours you work, the better your job ( doctor etc), the more jobs you do = you getting paid only slightly more. Not too much.
The slight is small to prevent a wealth gap from forming like it has here in US.
Also in a socialist country, it's more about the means of production. The harder you work, the more you produce, the more you produce, the more you keep.
Say, a farmer grows 10 Kg of onions. He tells the council he needs 2 Kg, so he keeps 2 Kg, the other 8 Kg goes to the council which they sell.
But say the farmer works harder and produces 15 Kg, since last time he gave away 8Kg, he can give away 8Kg again this time leaving him 7Kg to do whatever he wishes to with it.
gronchbove: I support that. Lazy folks should not get the same wages as a hard worker.
But, I agree that the Capitalist system has created the 1% who live like kings. They create policy and don't care about the masses.
You know what ZIRP is, of course. Socialist ZIRP might even out wages, but it is also meant to protect the Bankers.
As Marx noted, the weakness of Capitalism is the interest rate. Banks charge 5% even when the economy is tanking. That destroys the real wealth of the nation.
Communist nations, such as Russia, China, Cuba and Venezuela may lead the world as Capitalism dies.
Communist_: Russia fell to economic collapse because of economic sanctions on them in 1991.
China is following Menshevikism, a Marxist theory. Which states a country needs to go through Capitalism to create a lot of money then turn Socialist.
But what the world needs is a revolution in Europe to prove socialism can work.
gronchbove: Russia fell due to mismanagement. People turned to the Black Market, because the government bureaucracies were grossly inefficient.
Yeltsin and Gorbachev were begging the West for money.
China is both Capitalistic and Communistic. Like Vietnam, it is not afraid to imprison criminal bankers.
Europa (GREECE and all) are pathetic.
They are what happens based on Marxist theory when you allow Pure Capitalism to destroy your nation.