Do guns protect you, or simply cause violence? (Page 118)

kittybobo34: We forced Ho Chi Min to the Communist side. He was our great ally in WW2, saving americans and running intelligence against the Japanese..He even modeled his constitution after the American version. When the war was over, the French came back, Our principles
of self determination went right out the window. We supported the French. So it was us that pushed Ho Chi Min to the communists. That was a war that was wrong from the start. 50,000 american lives, and most likely a million Vietnamese for NOTHING.

zeffur: re: "kittybobo34: We forced Ho Chi Min to the Communist side. He was our great ally in WW2, saving americans and running intelligence against the Japanese. He even modeled his constitution after the American version. When the war was over, the French came back, Our principles of self determination went right out the window. We supported the French. So it was us that pushed Ho Chi Min to the communists. That was a war that was wrong from the start. 50,000 american lives, and most likely a million Vietnamese for NOTHING."

How's that? The French had control of Indochina from the 1880s until they were defeated in WW2.

"After the Fall of France during World War II, the colony was administered by the Vichy government and was under Japanese occupation until March 1945, when the Japanese overthrew the colonial regime. After the Japanese surrender, the Viet Minh, a communist organization led by Hồ Chí Minh, declared Vietnamese independence, but France subsequently took back control of French Indochina. An all-out independence war, known as the First Indochina War, broke out in late 1946 between French and Viet Minh forces.

In order to create a political alternative to the Viet Minh, the State of Vietnam, led by former Emperor Bảo Đại, was proclaimed in 1949 and the French sought to reunite Vietnam though was unsuccessful. On 22 October and 9 November 1953, the Kingdom of Laos and Kingdom of Cambodia proclaimed their respective independence. Following the Geneva Accord of 1954, the French withdrew from Vietnam, which had been split into two, and French Indochina came to an end."
src: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina

The US war in Vietnam was about stemming the flow of communism in Vietnam.

"The Vietnam War was a long, costly and divisive conflict that pitted the communist government of North Vietnam against South Vietnam and its principal ally, the United States. The conflict was intensified by the ongoing Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union."

kittybobo34: I am talking about the beginning of the war,, The Vietnamese were fighting the French, and we supported the French,, then they turned to the communists, and we jumped in because its our gut reaction to fight the communists... We should have helped them kick the French out. and helped them form their own government.

zeffur: Well--the French had been in control of Indochina since the late 1880s--not a big shock that we'd continue to support them as they recovered from WW2.
I'm sure we considered it vital to France's recovery for them to continue to have control over Indochina.

kittybobo34: So in effect we abandon our principles of self determination and supported colonial repression. Can you blame the Vietnamese for turning against us, and siding with the only support available.

zeffur: Did we aid the French or just let it play out as it played out? Nature abhors a power vacuum... if they couldn't survive without the communists then they likely weren't ready to be in charge of their country.

Most other countries eventually booted out the French & the English, so running to daddy Marxism is was just a dumb decision on their part.

kittybobo34: The USA was the only super power at that time,, with a word, we could have had the French out of there. The Vietnamese fought them for 17 years before they turned to the Chinese.

Campion: General Giap is perhaps the greatest unrecognized military genius of the last century.

zeffur: You are probably right--but, my guess is that we probably thought it would help with France's recovery to continue to have Indochina in their quiver...

Campion: He fought the French then he fought the Japanese then he fought the French again and then he took on the most powerful military power in the world and he won. Donald Trump must love him --- he is a "winner".

chronology: Campion. I disagree. The U.S.was not beaten at all in Vietnam. American firepower and air power completely dominated the region. But the Vietnamese knew a lot of facts America never seemed to consider. One major one was cost. America takes care of it's veterans. Even if they are not injured they enjoy benefits and medical help. And that costs money. The Vietnamese knew that the American Manning levels were impossible to sustain financially. Congress began to realise this as well, all they began to think about was red ink in the books for decade's. They were right, it was in 2008 I think that the costs of Vietnam reached their peak. And the war had been over for 30 year's. But pensions and other benefits hit all time tops for Vietnam era veterans.
Congress saw all this coming in the 1960s. America is just not set up to fight that kind of war. By comparison, Vietnam spent next to nothing on it's veterans.

RoseLil: Illegal guns cause murders,, legal guns protect. Dem gun control will result in mass murders, the rioters are theirs. All dictators take guns before their mass killings.

Sir Loin: Wrong Rose, I had an illegal gun once, a modified machine gun. It didn't cause a single murder

RoseLil: Criminals get illegal guns that's why murders are caused by them.

Sir Loin: the murders are caused by the criminals, not the guns

RoseLil: yea criminals who own illegal guns.

Sir Loin: The only murderer I know personally killed her husband with a punch to the head, not with a gun

Sir Loin: Should we also ban hands?

RoseLil: Illegal gun tells me all i need to know.

Wild__: Given all the civil unrest and riots I certainly could use some more 30 round magazines.

zeffur: re: "Sir Loin: Should we also ban hands?"

No, we should confine the murderer.

RoseLil: hey z u blocked me, i though u were a conservative.

RoseLil: https://gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/058/577/281/original/1e498ae50b26a0f4.jpg?1601341863

zeffur: I block lots of WC chatters to reduce the number of notifications that I receive.
No offense intended.

ghostgeek: Would this have happened if there were no guns?

ROCHESTER, NY — Two young adults, a man and a woman, were killed and 14 people wounded early Saturday in the largest Rochester shooting in memory, an act of violence that occurred at a backyard house party with more than 100 people present.

The shooting occurred on the 200 block of Pennsylvania Avenue, at a residence located in the city's Marketview Heights neighborhood.

The identities of the deceased victims have not been released pending notification of next of kin. Acting Police Chief Mark Simmons said both victims were in their late teens or early 20s.

[ https://eu.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/09/19/rochester-mass-shooting-near-public-market/5836840002/ ]