Do guns protect you, or simply cause violence? (Page 11)

LiptonCambell: >>>The two largest movie theatre chains in America now forbid guns on their premises.

Yes, and the result has been clear- massacres take place in gun free zones.

Every. Single. mass shooting in the past 25 years in America has taken place in a gun free zone. The last two mass shootings in theatres, the Aurora shooting and the Lafayette shooting? Both gun free zones. They accomplished only one thing- the murderer knew no one would stop them as they mowed down the audience.

And you're celebrating this.

LiptonCambell: >>>Do you think a civilized nation should allow such carnage, SoulVIBE?

Do you think a civilized nation should allow it's citizens to be executed by unhinged criminals?

ghostgeek: This is interesting Lipton. How can statistics support two dimetrically opposed views? For instance, data taken from a study in Pediatrics and from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, has shown that states with more guns tend to have far more gun deaths. And it's not just one study. "Within the United States, a wide array of empirical evidence indicates that more guns in a community leads to more homicide," David Hemenway, the Harvard Injury Control Research Center's director, wrote in Private Guns, Public Health.

LiptonCambell: Typical, isn't it? I offer broader research, involving multiple nations, several decades sometimes even going back over a century, and you instead choose to focus on the smaller picture, focusing on shorter periods and states rather than countries...

ghostgeek: Lipton, did you read my post about that cop, trying to make an arrest, shooting at the suspect as he ran away and killing a bystander? Imagine, if you will, everybody shooting in a movie theatre, just as you would have them do. How many, do you think, would be hit by stray bullets? A sure way to pump up the death toll.

ghostgeek: When economist Richard Florida took a look at gun deaths and other social indicators, he found that higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness didn't correlate with more gun deaths. But he did find one telling correlation: States with tighter gun control laws have fewer gun-related deaths.

ghostgeek: "Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide."

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

ghostgeek: "We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded."

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

ghostgeek: "Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide."

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

ghostgeek: "Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide."

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

ghostgeek: How much broader does the evidence have to get, Lipton?

ghostgeek: Here's something else to consider. The states with the most guns report the most suicides. Put simply, there is a lot of research that shows greater access to guns dramatically increases the risk of suicide.

ghostgeek: Oh, and what about this; a study in the American Journal of Public Health found that states with more guns also have more cops die in the line of duty. That doesn't suggest guns protect.

ghostgeek: Lipton, you and SoulVIBE just want to snuggle up to your guns, no matter what. Any sane person can see that guns are dangerous and should be tightly controlled. Shame you can't.

ghostgeek:

LiptonCambell: >>> Imagine, if you will, everybody shooting in a movie theatre, just as you would have them do. How many, do you think, would be hit by stray bullets?

So lets consider the options;

A)Only the gunman is armed. He goes to the front of the theatre(as was the case with the Aurora shooting) and unloads clip after clip on anyone trying to make their way to the exit. Bodies are piled up in the aisles, no one can stop him, and everyone is shot or killed.

A) Along with the gunman being armed, theres 3-10 people in the crowd who are both armed, and have training on how to handle it. The gunman goes to the front of the theatre, and unloads clip after clip on anyone trying to make their way to the exit. Then 3-10 people pull out a gun and end the situation before he can load a second clip, saving lives.

Which movie theatre would you rather be in?

You're so intent on assuming that only mass murderers can shoot the broad side of the barn that you ignore the fact that you're insisting people be forced into the role of target practice. You have so little tolerance for your fellow man to defend themselves that you'd rather see a group of people be murdered than risk one of them fighting back.

ghostgeek: The situation I would like to be in would be the one where nobody started shooting because nobody had a gun. Seems you keep ignoring that possibility, Lipton.

SoulVIBE: Yes we are the ones that can not see...lol this is like watching a dog chase his own tail...the TRUTH is ive given you a little knowledge in this thread ghostgeek, to show you why things are as they are in this country (broader scope)...(shockingly) you chose to ignore it (and use an increasingly smaller scope/example) and thats fine...you keep thinking you got the answer(s) buddy...have fun chasing that tail...take care, Peace and 1 Love

SoulVIBE: Yes, its the guns fault Lipton, why cant you see that?..it has NOTHING to do with people being responsible...i mean the ONLY way people can learn to be responsible is by a law telling them they have to be responsible...how else can one learn to be responsible (with a gun, car or anything else)...i know, if a law banned cars and guns, people would certainly learn how to use them responsibly...that HAS to be the answer...has to be, cuz laws are the ONLY reason most of us dont go around killing people...right?..no, but every human being has a RIGHT to defend themselves and not all can do so through natural means..."let them be victims due to their age and/or physical hindrances that prevent them from fending off the attack of even a small child...thats perfectly fine, what is ONE life compared to me FEELING more safe?" (fin)

SoulVIBE: btw, i dont own guns...i just see the need for them sometimes...take care, Peace and 1 Love to ALL

ghostgeek: Does anyone remember the title of this thread? Well, here it is in case you've forgotten: "Do guns protect you, or simply cause violence" Trying to answer this question, I've referenced many American studies that come to the conclusion that guns do not protect but do exacerbate violence. Honestly though, why give a shit about what academics think. Let's cut the crap and do our own thinking. If there are no guns, nobody can be shot. Yes, it's as simple as that.

By the way SoulVIBE I don't live in your godforsaken country, so for all I care you Yanks can do the decent thing and blow your balls off.

SoulVIBE: lol excellent...but i do agree brother it may indeed be "godforsaken"...

ghostgeek: It shouldn't be SoulVIBE, it should be a wonderful place to live, but somehow you Americans seem to be doing your best to create a hell-on-earth. Why beats me, but there you are.

SoulVIBE: Its not all of us brother, its those who control the direction this country moves in...we the people wish for a return to the beautiful state of living it once was (long before my time)...but losing the guns isnt the answer...a change in consciousness is what it will take...i have hope...

ghostgeek: SoulVIBE, I don't believe it's ever possible to return to the past. I tried it, sort of, without success.