Why can't Muslims Take Criticism? (Page 204)

ghostgeek: How long would Israel last if it didn't have America's backing?

Zanjan: The tourist industry there is the best and busiest in the world; it would stand just on the falafels & shawarma- yum.

ghostgeek: The United States has given Israel a total of $146 billion in bilateral assistance and missile defense funding through 2020, according to the Congressional Research Service (CRS), which provides nonpartisan research to lawmakers. That makes it the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid since World War II.

[ https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/05/31/us-aid-israel-palestinian-support-change-arms-deals-biden-democrats/7438217002/ ]

Fractured fairy tale: don't be Fooled Islam Isn't the only Anchent Religion Still going Strong , paganism and or Devil worship Is Still around

Zanjan: Ghost, Israel is a world heritage site - every nation should be contributing something to protect it. The USA isn't the only country that sends foreign aid. Canada sends less because we don't have the tax base the USA has.

Don't forget that both our countries have trade and investment agreements with Israel, which is an important economic strategy for all parties concerned.

WHlSKY: “Every nation should be contributing something to protect it”.. Um, excuse me? No. I do not have anything against Israel. They are not struggling against poverty or exploitation over there. They are a rich nation. Maybe I am not sentimental towards the Abrahamic faith’s attachment towards Israel.

Countries should be supported in developing their natural resources to sustain themselves. Not given ‘aid’. Africa has countries with deep resources but the exploitation happens where foreign countries enter to take the resources with very little if any benefit to the locals. Instead they should be given the technology and education in tapping into their own resources to decide what they wish in lieu of ‘aid’. Wouldn’t happen though because of the greed.

Israel has no serious issues that warrants a stipend from countries worldwide. They have historical sites? Great so does South America, the Caribbean, the rest of the ME, everyone else too.

Zanjan: "They are a rich nation."

Maybe take a look at their clean-up budget after all the bombings. Israel is a small nation which is mostly westernized, which doesn't mean "rich".

A rich nation doesn't have a law where every one of its able citizens must spend two years minimum in the armed forces after they graduate from school. A rich nation doesn't have it's troops in armed uniform needing to ride the city buses between locations.

We're all rich, compared to places like Somalia and the Sudan. Where have you been the last 50 years?

In addition to massive projects organized by religious groups, there are government-sponsored third world development agencies to educate children and parents, and help the disadvantaged be self-supporting. However, it's difficult to farm an orchard or keep a bike shop when war blows them up.

You might want to check out all those countries - many of the tribals make their living from the tourist industry. Some families would starve without it.

WHlSKY:
Conscription does not equate poverty . Conscription occur in many countries. You can research and see those that still have it, like Iran, Greece, I saw Denmark, Germany and France on the list too.

Using the public transportation does not equate poverty. In the US you can see service men/women in their gab riding the bus or subway.

What are you going on about? Hard to maintain a farm when your country is flooded with subsidised cheap goods. Take a look at the rice situation in Haiti for example. One of many.

I’m not convinced on giving anything to Israel just for being favoured by Abrahamic religious zealots. It’s not in need.

Zanjan: It's a good thing you don't rule any country, especially Haiti, which is a long term natural disaster zone. They're thankful for any help they can get from anyone. The kind of help they need is not the same kind that Israel is getting.

WHlSKY:
That ‘help’ of flooding their markets with cheap US rice caused a lot of harm for their rice farmers. It even led to a mass migration from the countryside to the city area. I do not think you understood this. Haiti’s issues are contributed by the natural disasters they have experienced but there is a lot more to it. Like the reparations they were forced to pay France in their early stages of emancipation. Corrupt governments. The deforestation.

Giving “help” should be that, helpful. It should be well thought out and consultations should occur.

As for Israel, it receives billions in various aid. They can not be compared.

Aid to countries should focus more on assisting towards independency, not in keeping a flow of aid. Perhaps it is done purposefully to keep these countries under control or intimidation with trade etc.

Zanjan: "Aid to countries should focus more on assisting towards independency"

We don't live in that kind of world anymore. The ages of Empire and Nation-building are over. Today, every country flies its own flag and seats its own government. Yet no one is cut off from help.
The planet is a global social village and the universal reality is Interdependence. International relationships are for mutual benefit, care and concern, not for exploitation anymore.

No country can be 100% self-supporting in the modern world.

If you doubt that, refer to the G8 Summit, the United Nations, and the World Monetary Fund, to name a few institutions that guide assistance.

WHlSKY:
Globalisation has done more harm than good.

Countries should be made to be self supporting because reality is there is no ‘goodwill’ and fairness, there is however greed. To best combat that flaw in mankind, independence is needed.

Life isn’t a fair trade, Zanjan, there are many cases where ‘aid’ is used as a bargaining chip. There is unfair trade and competition. That system has bred poverty and exploitation. Time to implement safeguards for these more vulnerable countries.

The resources of one country should not be taken over by another country.

WHlSKY:
Poor countries have the resources to be self sufficient, to not need to rely on “aid”. You are arguing for keeping them handicapped vs self-sustainability.

Just allowing them control on their resources and place the focus on independence will help them much more than flooding their market with cheap subsidised goods, etc. A foreign oil company can suck out billions in revenue (monies for their country) then turn around to give a few millions in ‘aid’. Why should it be like that? It’s like a pimp and his street hooker.

This self-sustainable goal wouldn’t be done, not because some moral high ground of interdependence but because it is easer to take advantage and make cheap deals for gold & minerals & oil etc absorbing what these poorer countries should own and fully control.

One man’s ‘interdependence’ is another man’s exploitation.

Zanjan: Well, it sounds like you have the recipe to establish world peace and prosperity. Thing is, idealism never really panned out.

WHlSKY:
Perhaps. It is not a recipe for world peace or prosperity, however, it is an important step to bringing poorer countries up to a standard and normal level.

Thing is what we have now isn’t panning out for poorer countries.

Adam Southworth: Islam has already taken over entire towns in Europe. Women who live there no longer feel safe to leave their homes, tens of thousands of girls and young women have been raped, tortured and murdered across Europe, terrorists target children and their families, while a significant fraction of the Muslim community sympathize with their goals and protect them. Our culture is being replaced -- town by town and city by city -- with something else. We must all wake up and realize that our entire civilization is at stake and that we, the people of Europe, have finite time to change it.

There are exceptions in every group, but we have no reliable way to "assimilate" or "integrate" these groups en masse and -- with respect to "well-intended" people -- I have no more patience for futile debates about dreams no one knows how to achieve. While you debate eidola or fret about a burgeoning minority -- soon to become a majority -- European girls are being raped, children and their families murdered, and the rest of us have lost fundamental rights, including the right to our heartlands.

WHlSKY:
Considering that in the UK, you have a Prince who is accused of grooming a minor, I’d say they’ve assimilated a little too much.

There are way too many child pornography ring bust in Europe and sex trafficking to act now like the exceptional civilised saints. Get over yourself with this ‘heartlands’ speech when your ‘heartlands’ very foundation is rape and pillage.

Zanjan: I watch the news every day; haven't heard a thing about what Adam describes. Seems to me, if one culture is being replaced by another culture, the former wasn't worth its salt and couldn't stand up by itself.

Last time I looked, Europe was booming. Refugees from Africa and the Middle East are migrating there while in North America, we see no Europeans applying for sanctuary.

WHlSKY:
Propaganda is booming business, Zanjan. The PR companies’ boogeyman left over from the Brexit campaign still lingers on.

Best to let him be in the comfort of his deluded pristine ‘vaterland’ ideals.

Adam Southworth: I deign to respond to lies and infantile insults, but the subject is too important to ignore them.

First, the lion's share of human-trafficking takes place in African and Middle Eastern countries, not Europe. The claim that human-trafficking or child-pornography is a core feature of European nations is nonsense. If not for Europe, human-trafficking might still be practiced by most of mankind. Europe abolished slavery. Britain was the first to do so. The institution of slavery has been a core feature of other countries for millennia.

Second, the actions of one man don't change the fact that a culture of equality between men and women is superior to a culture of female subjection, inequality in law, female genital mutilation, child-marriage, honour violence and stoning for adultery, fornication and the crime of being raped. Muslim immigration has brought this culture to Europe. And if we care about future generations of women, then we have a duty to uproot it. This must be done.

The fact this is not mainstream news is a problem, Zanjan. The fact that either of you would celebrate or lie about these facts is beneath contempt.

WHlSKY:
There is no lies or insults. If you are offended by the truth, then sort yourself out. The issues are far too important to be placed as a ‘my region is superior’. Having a Eurocentric attitude and ignoring that Europeans are not without their gross behaviour causes more harm than good.

1) The fact remains that no region has the monopoly on human-trafficking. Europe can not place itself as without human-trafficking. 60+% of the human-trafficking in Europe has been for sex exploitation. It is a serious issue in Europe and carried out by the native European.
For a smaller region than Africa, it is expected.

2) The claim is “ your ‘heartlands’ very foundation is rape and pillage”. Do you need a history lesson? Do I need to go through with you the history of Europe? Or am I to pretend that rape and pillage were not part of it.

3) No. I am using the same one-shoe fits all reasoning that you are doing. And if a group of people is to be judged whilst you are claiming this is not within your culture, then let me inform you that Europeans, like everyone and everywhere else, are carrying out these issue.
Throughout Europe’s history it has had child sexual exploitation.
Several child pornography rings have been made across Europe done by Europeans.

Just this year alone there was a bust one of the world’s biggest child pornography darknet platforms. It was in Germany by native German men.

And you come here as if we should all trust someone because they are European? That we should automatically think they are the exception? Illogical.

You should spend more time reading what occurs in the world today than having this naive view.

4) You are either very ignorant or think that I am. European countries abolished the slave trade that THEY started. Also, European countries did not have a say in many of the cases ending THEIR slave trade. Within those colonies, the Africans themselves emancipated themselves. Many fought, many ran away. It forced the hand of the European colonisers. Do you not know this??

5) You do not care on any generation of women. See above. In fact, I doubt many women wish to be associated with anything that you are spewing.

You are just regurgitating the same far-right rhetorics and what has been dubbed as incel speech. That propaganda has been circulating on social networks for years. With many professional PR firms and other groups harvesting it for Brexit votes and votes for far - right parties. I understand it may make you feel special and you wish to feel part of something ‘superior’, but this is reality and you’ve to get a mature view of it.

WHlSKY:
It is not possible to keep a systematic and continuous mass murdering and raping of women and children hidden from the general public.

You claim it is not in mass media. However, it is not found in independent human-rights groups or other organisations either.

Adam Southworth: Lies don't insult me. Nor do rhetorical claims in the vein of "rape and pillage" are the "foundation" of Europe. I haven't blackened everyone. I have been precise in my critique of Islam and a "significant fraction" of the Muslim community (which doesn't even broach how many must have known of these crimes and kept silent). The fact that not all groups commit mass rape to the same extent doesn't justify your lack of precision.

On the contrary, the future of Europe is too important to be hamstrung by the lie that all cultures are equal. No one is entitled to that illusion at the expense of civilization. If you care about intellectual and moral progress, then you must concede that some cultures are superior to others and that human groups are not interchangeable. Different groups have their own cultures and are loath to abandon them. That is reality. Of course, no group is white as snow. That doesn't excuse the failure to address serious problems like the mass rape of tens of thousands of women and children across Europe.

1) Human-trafficking is most prevalent in the Middle East and Africa. Russia is one of few exceptions. Some countries are more involved in this practice than others. No, I don't see why the size of the African land mass should explain that. There are larger countries which are not overrepresented in human-trafficking. Slavery is not something new under the Sun on the African continent, especially after Islam spread to the Maghreb.

2) The claim that the "foundation" of Europe is "rape and pillage" is simply a lie. The fact that these practices exist among all groups doesn't make them the core or fundamental feature of Europe. You plainly need the history lesson if you believe that.

Europe created the modern world. Physics, mathematics, geometry, logic, democracy, astronomy, biology, taxonomy, history, zoology, medicine, among countless other goods, have their roots in Greece and Rome and were revived and expanded in the Renaissance and scientific revolution. These are the foundations of Europe. Europe did not need to be demographically invaded by a violent religion to achieve these things. We should have the humility to take up that torch, not demolish those foundations in a single generation.

3) I said quite clearly that there are exceptions to every rule. However, there are also regular patterns. The crucial thing is concentration. We can't extinguish every lighted match, but a forest fire threatens an entire region. The prevalence of these practices among different groups is the crucial thing. While the life of a single child is an entire universe, one should distinguish between exceptions and the broad mass, one man and the broader culture, "diversity" and population replacement.

4) European nations were involved in the African slave trade which preceded the Atlantic slave trade by millennia. The practice of slavery is universal, not an invention of one group. The Arab slave trade took nearly twice the number of black slaves as the Atlantic slave trade and preceded it by roughly 800 years. The African slave trade, which was deeply embedded in the African economy, has existed since the first African civilizations. Britain worked to abolish not just the Atlantic slave trade but the practice of slavery across the globe.

As to the cause of abolition, slave revolts were not the chief reason. Those were put down. We still held the whip hand in Africa, but we chose not to bring it down. The abolitionists and moral outcry were a more potent reason for the end of the Atlantic slave trade. Britain spent vast wealth to abolish and police the slave trade for humane reasons. We led the world out of darkness and have nothing to be ashamed of. We should not allow ourselves to be bullied into the belief that we have no right to a future. The same goes for all European groups.

No woman should have to endure rape. I heard the screams of the women carried off by Muslim rapists outside Cologne Cathedral. I heard the accounts of victims. I know there are tens of thousands more like them. That's the end of it. The people who claim this is a subjective illusion have blood on their hands, not virtue points for diversions on the ludicrous pretext that Europeans should temper their hubris! No, that is the end of it. No more dialogue. No more obfuscation or prevarication. No more time. What we need now is action.

As to your last point, to class something "far-right" or "incel" doesn't invalidate it. It's not a mark of wisdom to slander your enemies and discard facts with rhetorical labels. Truth is everywhere. People should listen to everyone and take on the best of it. As the New Testament says: "Test all things; hold fast that which is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

WHlSKY:
On the statement:
"...your ‘heartlands’ very foundation is rape and pillage."
England's as well as European history is marked by rape and pillage of tribes and groups. From the Romans, to the Germanic tribes. Much like the history of other places.

On your statement for precision. You have presented none. Just one example on your statement: "a significant fraction of the Muslim community sympathize with their goals and protect them" Present the data showing the percentage or fraction of the Muslim community who sympathise with rape and murder.

What makes European culture different when there are Europeans who are capable and are raping, who are organising sex trafficking rings, who are murdering, who are engaging in child pornography rings? You are telling me to look at the muslims, when in fact there is not a specific group with the monopoly on these crimes. This to me is a red flag. When it comes to crimes, there is legislation in place to deal with perpetrators regardless of their religious background.

Reality has shown me that there is no separation between a European pedophile and a muslim pedophile. And in both groups they do exist. Are you going to deny this?

Islam is part of European culture. There are muslim majority countries with a history of Islam. You have Kosovo, Albania, and others. There are also traditional Islamic groups that were present through this history of Europe. Islam is not new to Europe or cut off from it. Are you going to define these as non-Europeans?

Cultures are not 'good' or 'bad', or 'superior' or 'inferior', they just exist. There is not even a fixed European culture. Europe is comprised of many groups of people with traditions. Out of this group which are claiming is superior? The Romani? The 'Native' Islamists? Do you see how narrow the position you are placing forward is when compared to reality. It fits nice in a neat emotional speech but add reality to it and it falls apart.

On your statement:
"That doesn't excuse the failure to address serious problems like the mass rape of tens of thousands of women and children across Europe by members of one."

Except that it is shown that the raping of women and pedophilia is not done by 'one group' or monopolised by muslims. The criminal busts on trafficking rings have shown that these perpetrators were Europeans themselves too.

1) Human trafficking is also prevalent in Europe. Human trafficking is an issue within Europe and the 'superior European culture' has not stopped it. There appears to be 4 African countries that are listed in Tier 4, and 2 in the Middle East, 2 from Central Asia, 4 countries in East Asia, with 1 from Europe. Those two countries in the Middle East is war torn Syria, and Iran. Congratulations? You have one country less than the ME. Not sure how that is an accomplishment.

I like the Scientific approach to matters. If you claim that European culture is superior and has no equal, then it should not have any Europeans carrying out human trafficking as it is beneath them. On the contrary, it appears they are as the rest of the world with this prevalent issue.

Sure, slavery is not new, it has been conducted in various countries in history. On a large scale by European countries, thus making them not the exception.

2) I addressed the history of rape and pillage within European history. To state that it was not present by the Romans, the Germanic tribes etc, is a blatant lie. The fact that rape and pillage exist among any group does not make them the core or fundamentals of any group? Good, then why are you applying that to others groups outside the one you identify with..

European contributions to the world does not overshadow that of other regions. In history we also had presence of the Golden Age of Islam. The Tang Dynasty also presented their contributions. And those are just a few. While it is fine to be proud of your region, it does not take away that history does not occur within a bubble. There was also the cross over of intellectual ideas. The discovery of zero, etc. Mankind's growth did not begin with Europe, it has been growing long before Europe's Golden Age. You should look up Christianity in Europe, if you believe there was no violent forcing of a religion. In our modern world you still have various countries continuing to progress. Asia is looked upon as that technology powerhouse. European countries are not being held back by muslims. Perhaps other countries are just having more opportunities and thus excelling.

3) You are attempting to appeal to my emotion. That will not work. I will prefer you present a logical and factual argument. I have already read these rhetorics by the far-right and it has shown to be propaganda driven.

4) No one stated that slavery was an invention of one group. I stated that European countries abolished the slavery that they started. Haiti was the first country to abolish slavery in 1804 from France (which they had to later pay heavily for). The Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, which you are referring to, legally covers the enslaved people the British Empire. Even for that there was to be a later addition I think to cover slavery itself and not just the Trade. It only appears that Britain made a 'global' move because they were the biggest traders in Slave Trade. So no, it was not a 'global' move. It was Britain abolishing slavery that they were conducting. The other European countries had their abolishing of slavery after. Example, the Netherlands in 1863.

The revolts were a heavy reason. In Haiti they had an abolition movement that led to rebellion on that island. This event fuelled on the campaigns to have the Slave Trade abolish. Many pushed on in London who were themselves ex-slaves. People like Ignatius Sancho for example and many abolitionists. It is a deep history and I suggest you look into it. While the Slave Trade ended, there was still slavery. There was also events as the "Baptist War" in Jamaica, which was a revolt which contributed heavily to the Slavery Abolish Act, which came after the abolition of the Slave Trade.

I do not know what level of history you are voicing your position from, but the truth is that the ending of Slavery was far more than some sudden moral realisation. It was a lot of pushing and fighting by slaves and ex slaves and the members of the public.

On that last rant on being no part of the future etc, a bit melodramatic.

Yet you have not presented your data as asked. You again appeal to emotion and that to me is a red flag of propaganda.

The rise of the far-right, and these groups who tend to target 'incels', is a serious issue, not slander. You can look into the matter.

Strange enough that you mentioned that verse. That expression is to examine carefully something to be sure that it is genuine or true. Based on what you have said, it appears that you've bought into propaganda.


[1] Page 74 https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-trafficking-in-persons-report/

WHlSKY:
Truth. I think the British Empire didn't top as much as the other empires we've had in mankind's history. And Europe's history tends to be bland, perhaps this is why so many of the museums are filled with foreign artefacts (some of which were stolen).

Who can resist fun facts like:
By the 22nd century BC, the ancient Sumerian ruler Ur-Nammu had formulated the first law code, which consisted of casuistic statements ("if … then ..." ).

Or reading about the Code of Hammurabi.

No way is European culture/history superior. There are too many beautiful elements in a variety of cultures to place one above the other.

Still waiting on your data on systematic mass rapes of women and children by ‘one’.