Why can't Muslims Take Criticism? (Page 162)
ghostgeek: Strange how believers pervert the truth so they can continue to believe lies. The same thing happened in Germany after it lost the war. The people there convinced themselves that they were the victims.
ghostgeek: Do frogs appear every year in Egypt? Yes, because the Nile is a mighty river. That is what Moses should have told the Hebrews, not that the frogs were sent by God. Just one of the many pieces of evidence in Exodus that show Moses to be a liar.
ghostgeek: Mmm ... so should we believe that Moses was trotting around over 3500 years ago? Not if you've got any functioning brain cells. There is a reference to the Philistines in Exodus, a people who were first mentioned by the Egyptians in about 1200 BC. That means Moses was doing his prophet stunt after that date. Throw in the mention of camels and you get into the first millennium BC. Shame so many people are happy to be bamboozled by falsehoods.
Blackshoes: True believers never pervert the truth. They preach it', and will die to defend it. Knowing that God rewards his faithful servants and rejects those that deny it.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
Zanjan: Shoes wrote: "Exodus took place in 1446 BC."
That's not stated in the Bible. There's scientific evidence when the beginning of exodus occurred and, as the Bible states, the transition didn't occur over a single year.
At the core of the story are real, physical events.
These are recorded in a stele found in the temple at Karnak in Luxor. During the reign of Amos 1, there was a terrible weather event, unlike anything Egyptians had seen before. It described being hit by rain, thunder and lightning and it was dark for 3 days. Buildings and homes were destroyed, people died.
Ancient tree rings affirm this period. The fall of every civilization in the known world was occurring at this time. The eruption of Thera at Santorini fits every description of what happened with the plagues as a result of that eruption. It left a crater 7 miles across.
The eruption was dated to exactly 1,613. B.C. (a tree branch was found preserved in the wall of volcanic ash on Santorini - they dated it to the moment it died). That changed the weather patterns on the whole planet for awhile.
The story is tied into the spiritual state of the people and the last thing that brought them down.
Take a look at the statues of Pharaohs around that period - they look oddly shaped, like they're starving. The royal children were dying young because the Pharaohs had been practicing incest generation after generation - their lineages are recorded.
Zanjan: Ghost, when all hell breaks lose with nature, who's to blame but the gods? They either protect you or curse you. One will survive, one standing beside him won't. Those who knew it was coming prepare. The rest joke and its business as usual - people are still that way today.
Sure, they all start praying when it hits but it's too late. They should have been ready for the inevitable. History is loaded with such stories but their lessons haven't taken hold in most people.
Zanjan: You know, it's the victor who writes the stories.
The ancients carved them into stone so we have them long past the change of regimes, weather and, forgotten memory. What of today? There's nothing to protect what written; when electricity fails, it seems we can't write or do anything else. When paper decomposes, chips fizzle and disks are demagnetized, what story is left?
If all we have is memories to pass down, who will believe it?
Blackshoes: According to you GHOST claiming that you know, that which you have clearly admitted you don't know!
That's saying you know something that happens thousands of years ago because you believe only what you say, and of what others that were not there, above and beyond what the eyewitnesses have to say.
Not a logical nor intelligent thing to believe considering how uninformed you are of reality.
Now I know you believe that you can know what others know
MAYBE Because you believe yourself omnipresent whatever it is', the bottom line remains, your wrong.
I'm sure this sounds arrogant, It's not my intention however no more arrogant than your belief than you know more than those eyewitnesses that were concerned enough to tell you the truth so long ago.
Note there is more than enough evidence to show that Moses and exodus are factually written.
The truth can be known. You just have to believe God Moses Jesus and his prophets
ghostgeek: The Egyptians were more considerate and left behind a wealth of written material. The Tempest Stela has indeed been used to link Ahmose to Thera but others disagree:
However, not everyone agrees with the conclusion of the study authors. Marina Baldi, a scientist in climatology and meteorology at the Institute of Biometeorology of the National Research Council in Italy, analysed the information on the stela along with her colleagues and compared it to known weather patterns in Egypt. She believes the description could relate to the ‘Red Sea Trough’ weather pattern which, when disrupted, brings severe weather, heavy rain, and flash flooding. Other scholars, such as Egyptologist Ian Shaw believes the stela is propaganda put out by the pharaoh to rationalise a man-made disaster.
[ https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/translation-tempest-stela-could-change-ancient-timeline-001520 ]
ghostgeek: The problem isn't with the Egyptian eyewitnesses but with our attempts to understand what they were writing about.
ghostgeek: Has anyone ever taken the time to look at photographs of the Russian prisoners captured by the Germans in 1941? Columns stretching to the horizon. Multiply that tide of humanity many times over and you'll get some idea of the numbers of Hebrews who were supposed to have left Egypt one fine spring morning. It would have taken them days, if not weeks, to pass any one point, yet they're all supposed to have managed it in an hour or so. Quite bonkers.
Blackshoes: The Egyptian history has been notorious throughout their long reign in erasing anything that they find unflattering. As far as movement during the Exodus, the bible clearly stated it took days for them to get anywhere.
" Moses and the Exodus
Moses and the Exodus – “Let My People Go”
Among the details of the biblical account of Moses and the Exodus that are pointed to as possible contradictions in the Bible are the details of God’s mandate -- as delivered to Pharaoh by Moses and Aaron -- to “let My people go.”
Is this a little weekend outing, an extended vacation, or a permanent departure? Was it to sacrifice to God, to “serve” Him, or to completely leave Egypt? And then, were they promising to go only three days away and return, or to fully jettison themselves from the land? Or was Mt. Sinai only three days away from where they lived in Egypt? And then, what’s up with the unleavened bread thing -- the seven-day (not three-day) observance that was dropped right in the middle of the Exodus event?
Some critics have used all of these seemingly contradictory details to question the reliability of Moses and the Exodus in the Bible. But is there a way to reconcile them into a unified, trustworthy, historical account?
Moses and the Exodus – A Review of the Biblical Account
Without too much detail, let’s review some of the statements about Moses and the Exodus. First and most important, when God initially spoke to Moses from the burning bush at Mt. Sinai in Midian, He told Moses that His ultimate purpose for the Hebrews was that they would return to that mountain and “serve” Him. The word “serve” here is the same word that is used of the Hebrews’ role as Pharaoh’s slaves. In other words, by the time the Hebrews returned to Mt. Sinai in Midian, they would be in a position to “serve” God in the same totally owned and possessed way that they had been “serving” Pharaoh for 400 years.
But later, when Moses and Aaron first confronted Pharaoh about the status of God’s chosen people, God’s demand was that he let God’s people “go,” that they may hold a “feast” for Him in the wilderness. That doesn’t sound like a complete exit from the land. Or does it? It’s obvious from Pharaoh’s possessiveness that he knew the Hebrews could not serve two masters -- or gods -- at the same time. And God did everything necessary to make certain that Pharaoh knew His ultimate plans for the Hebrews. Throughout the Exodus account, two different Hebrew words were used to indicate God’s intentions (as well as Pharaoh’s) for the children of Israel. The first word is “shalach,” which indicates a complete exit or departure. The second word is “yalak,” which means “walk” or “brief journey.” According to the record, Pharaoh clearly knew the difference, as he tried to hang onto the Hebrews rather than relinquish them to their God.
In Moses’ initial request, the word for complete exit, “shalach,” was used, since the holding of a feast to the true God would be completely offensive to the supposed man-god Pharaoh. Of course, Pharaoh refused. Later, he was presented with the option of allowing the Hebrews to “yalak” (or journey) three days out and offer a “sacrifice” to their God. Again, Pharaoh refused. Perhaps it was because he did not expect the Hebrews to return, or maybe he actually feared that the God of the Hebrews was real and would answer their sacrifice with supernatural deliverance.
So on it went, with Pharaoh playing word games against God’s plan, and the prospect of ultimate departure always present in Pharaoh’s mind and in God’s purpose. As we know, God finally “motivated” Pharaoh to forcefully order the Hebrews’ departure all the way out of the land (shalach) after God shows His power and His prerogative through the Passover purchase of all the firstborn, including all of Israel, God’s firstborn. So God’s ultimate purpose was fulfilled through Pharaoh, against his will rather than through it.
Moses and the Exodus – Three Days’ Walk
When reviewing the account of Moses and the Exodus, we still might ask, "What was up with that three days’ walk, and the sacrifice, and the feast, if God was going to take them all the way out anyway? Was God just running a ruse past Pharaoh? And why did God throw in a seven-day observance of Unleavened Bread, which we read about in the middle of His instructions about the Passover?"
Well, I’m no expert, but here’s one possible take on the whole scenario. If we can trust God’s words in Exodus, we have to believe that He really did offer Pharaoh the option of letting the Hebrews go (“shalach”) three days out of Egypt proper, into a wilderness area controlled by Egypt, to offer a feast of celebration to God for their liberation from Pharaoh’s ownership. From there they would have moved on to wherever God would take them as their new Lord and Master. To that, of course, Pharaoh said, “fat chance” -- or the Egyptian equivalent.
Pharaoh was also offered to let the Hebrews go that same distance in an observed journey (“yalak”) to offer a sacrifice to the God. What sacrifice? Undoubtedly it would have been the same sacrifice that was offered on Passover, in order to purchase their freedom from Pharaoh’s ownership through the blood of a substitute. And it can be assumed that the ultimate outcome would have been the same -- complete exit from Egypt.
In both scenarios -- which Pharaoh refused -- the central event that would occur those three days into the wilderness was that they would meet their God at that place. Maybe that was what Pharaoh feared most -- or simply didn’t believe. But either way, the possibility of the Hebrews meeting their God three days out into the wilderness was real, because God made genuine offers to Pharaoh, which he refused. Ditto for the possibility of a feast and a sacrifice.
Moses and the Exodus – Feast of Unleavened Bread
So how long did it really take the Israelites to get all the way out of Egypt -- to completely escape not only Pharaoh’s ownership, but his jurisdiction and military power as well? That’s where the period of unleavened bread comes in. The easiest way to understand the Feast of Unleavened Bread in relation to the Exodus is by reading Deuteronomy 16:3:
“Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread . . . that is, the bread of affliction (for you came out of the land of Egypt in haste), that you may remember when you came out of the land of Egypt all the days of your life.”
According to Exodus 12, this period (or feast) of unleavened bread begins with a “holy gathering” on the first day, which is Passover, and ends with a “holy gathering” on the seventh day. During the entire time, the Jews are to eat only unleavened bread, which is called “the bread of affliction,” because of what happened when they came out of Egypt in extreme haste -- NOT the affliction of slavery in Egypt, which is commemorated in the Passover; but because of the hardship they experienced as they were leaving.
Confused? Don’t be. If we review all the events surrounding the Passover in light of these details, things become pretty clear. And you can check these details in your Bible -- they’re all there. If I read the Exodus account correctly, the Feast of Unleavened Bread actually begins the day after the Passover, which is not the most popular belief today, but was the timetable held by some Jewish leaders at least as far back as the first century. Passover, of course, includes unleavened bread; but the difference between the two observances is that Passover created the Exodus, while Unleavened Bread replicates and commemorates the Exodus.
Either way, the next day began with the Hebrews meeting and organizing -- a “holy gathering” -- to depart Egypt, having received from the Egyptians all types of possessions, which no doubt would have included beasts of burden, carts, and other implements that would have aided their travel. And away they went on “Day One” of their travel, along the “Way of the Red Sea”, or Gulf of Suez.
At the end of Day One, according to Exodus 12, they camped for the night at Succoth and baked all the unleavened dough they had prepared in haste -- all of it. How much was it? Well, I’m guessing it was enough to satisfy their hunger for that day, plus roughly another six days’ worth. Getting the picture? The next day they traveled from Succoth to Etham at the edge of the Egyptian wilderness -- Day Two of their journey. Again, they camped there, since darkness would have prevented them from going further. But then something very interesting happened. On the third day (remember three days into the wilderness to meet their God?) the Angel of the Lord went before them in a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night. Just as He had indicated all along -- three days out, one sacrifice, and ongoing “feast” as it were, and God is there, right on schedule, three days away, outside Egypt proper at the edge of the Egyptian wilderness.
Moses and the Exodus – By Cloud and Fire
What’s really interesting about this account of Moses and the Exodus is the reason God led them by cloud and by fire. According to the Bible, it was so that they could travel “day and night,” apparently without stopping to camp again until the seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Talk about hardship! Go ahead and try walking nearly 24 hours a day, for three or four days, with nothing on the menu but unsalted soda crackers! Now, in various places throughout the Bible, we are given clues about the supernatural ways in which God helped the Hebrews travel in extreme haste in such a hostile natural environment. For example, one passage seems to indicate God supernaturally empowered the entire nation, that they would not falter along the way. Another verse declares that He put His Spirit in them to provide that strength. Other provisions, according to the Psalms and 1 Corinthians 10, is that He covered them with a cloud of cool moisture, and dropped plentiful rain to sustain them. And, of course, they had the supernatural light of the pillar of fire to light their way in the darkness of the desert night. Even so, the fatigue, fear, and dread of the Egyptian army that would follow the Hebrews must have been intense. And that steady diet of unleavened bread probably didn’t help.
Finally, after six days, the Hebrews found themselves on the coastline of yam suph -- the Gulf of Aqaba according to 1 Kings 9 -- hemmed in by the mountains and the sea, with a deadly Egyptian chariot force closing in fast. Across the water was Midian (modern-day Arabia), and safety. But on their side of the water, death was imminent. That’s when God stationed Himself between the Hebrews for an entire day -- another holy gathering, and a Shabbat (Sabbath) to boot. God rested; the Hebrews rested (none too easily, I would guess); and even the Egyptians rested -- which gave Pharaoh ample time to re-consider and return to Egypt.
The rest, as they say, is history. That night God parted the waters of the Red Sea, the Hebrews crossed out of all Egyptian jurisdiction into Midian, the Egyptians followed, God closed up the waters, and the Egyptian bondage chapter of Israel’s history was finally over – just as God had promised it would be. And a new chapter of their relationship with God began. "
Fractured fairy tale: So why did the Temple get Destroyed then
Its Reciprical these Promises.
You cant just go around attscking other Countries
Fractured fairy tale: I mean people go on about Richous Behaviour.
What Wars we won latley after WW2
None of them . There been declared victorys . But there Dismal Failures made it worse for Everyone
ghostgeek: Are we to believe that Pharaoh and his merry troops stood watching the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea for days, even weeks, before bothering to do anything? Only a chump would think that.
ghostgeek: The alternative is to accept that there were just a few Hebrews. If there were sixty odd men and boys, and a similar number of women and girls, trailing after Moses then they could all scurry across the Red Sea in a morning. Makes far more sense.
ghostgeek: "At the end of Day One, according to Exodus 12, they camped for the night at Succoth"
Just shows you the rubbish some people will believe. If the Hebrews numbered over a million individuals, most of them would still have been on the road when the lucky few were baking bread.
Zanjan: Ghost: "Ahmose I, the first pharaoh of the New Kingdom? If so, he reigned in the century after Thera erupted"
Um yeah, that's when the stele was made - He ordered the chisel. Nobody was recording live with their Iphones, just a lot of grandpappys telling their stories. If you were the bad pharaoh in the story, you wouldn't be writing that down.
Blackshoes: If you've looked at the slave quarters in Egypt where they believe the Hebrews were kept. It's all flat ground and not hard for millions to leave the area. It doesn't funnel into one road
OMG use a little imagination and common sense.
Take a look at a modern football stadium, it doesn't take more than few minutes to exist the stadium with only a limited number of exist and get to your car.
Zanjan: Ghost, the verification for the story was weather science done all over the world for that time period. We know how volcanism affects climate. They discovered how high the plumes shot into the air - 30 miles up, and how much material was displaced. The ash was falling as far away as a 1,000 klms. The rest was carried in the high atmospheric currents.
They checked the growth rings on Bristlecone Pines in California - those trees can live 5 thousand years. The dates for climate cooling line up. Egyptians wrote down the medical treatment for the boils & white spots - it was an alkaline paste to counter acid burns. Every living thing was breathing in the gas and ash from Sulfuric acid. Sufuric dioxide was suspended in tiny droplets through the atmosphere all around the globe, reflecting back the sun's light into space. Temperatures cooled and the rain came down in torrents.
You want to ask how the Children of Israel weren't affected. Well, the Egyptians were located in the Nile delta, 400 klms away from the epicenter; they would have experienced a Tzunami. Moses's followers were living further away and inland, in the territory of Goshen. The winds do change.
The morning they left their old world behind was the spiritual morning of a spiritual springtime - the spiritual sun had risen above the horizon. I think the time frame for the Children of Israel was differnt than civilian time. They had one generation to escape unharmed.
Zanjan: The Hebrews weren't slaves in the sense that they were owned by people. They had their own homes and businesses and were paid for their work at every level of service. Some would have owned their own slaves and practiced the same religion as the Egyptians. Their nationality was Egyptian.
SOME Egyptians had ethnic roots in the Hebrew Faith and these were the first people Moses taught, just like Jesus taught the Jews first.
The early followers of Moses were slaves to tradition and materialism, not slaves to God. Moses aimed to change that.
Briefly, the beginning of their spiritual journey and faith pivots around a mega physical event; however, in the text, it's not easy to separate God's time from human time.
There are correlations in the text to spiritual cycles that are repeated in Christianity. They were counting down the Divine Lights to the ultimate end of these developments - to the stage of fulfillment of spiritual maturity.
You might note that Moses lost many followers along this journey, which continued in the wilderness. None of that first generation made it to the Promised Land and the reasons are given. Their offspring did because they had the right stuff. As it turned out, they didnt keep that land for very long.
Moses kept losing followers as spiritual day turned to spiritual night but there was always a small core of faithful devotees.
Angry Beaver: Why is there no evidence of the Exodus?
According to biblical scripture the Hebrews led by the patriarch Moses took his formerly enslaved people out of Egypt during the reign of Rameses II.
The history of Rameses is exceptionally well documented but there is scant evidence of any such event.
Further the scriptures tell us that Moses took his followers, numbering in the tens of thousands on a 40 year trek around what we today call the middle east.
No archeological evidence of any such diaspora has ever been found in any of the likely locations that this long event would have been situated and no historical documentation exists from any of the many different peoples that such an event would have affected.
Why is this?
Caanan, the alleged eventual destination of the Hebrews was under Egyptian control during this period so their arrival there would certainly have raised eyebrows among the Egyptian officials governing the province.