History is a Guilt Trip? (Page 4)

ghostgeek: Wars happen because somebody thinks they can win.

lori100:
Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we’re being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I’m liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That’s what’s insane about it. - John Lennon

The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes. - Benjamin Disraeli
---------------------------------------History is the lie commonly agreed upon. - Voltaire

ghostgeek: The sanest people on the planet are probably in the military.

lori100: Hardly....they are the warmongers with no conscience at all....They will slaughter men, women , babies, children every day and think nothing of it....

ghostgeek: Politicians start wars and leave it to soldiers to finish them.

lori100: Some of the soldiers actually do wake up and realize they are being used by psychopaths...some do suffer over their killings...

lori100: Fluoride has been used to create soldiers who will not question motives or orders...(it lowers I. Q.'s-----Gen. Douglas Mac arthur refused to use it on his soldiers...it was also used in concentration camps to subdue prisoners....)

ghostgeek: Perhaps soldiers know more about the business of war than other people so know better than anyone else the cost of getting it wrong.

ghostgeek: I take it you don't use fluoride toothpaste then?

lori100: No, it is added to the water supply to also subdue the public....many cities are now refusing to allow it in their water....

Metaverseguy: John Lennon was a notorious drug addict. His reality and his mind weren't keen and sharp. His struggles from middle class to upper class were inspiration for millions when the Vietnam war and deaths of so many soldiers seemed to make the world hopeless. But his assassination meant that like everyone else Lennon was mortal and his wild narcissism and anti-authority poems and songs came to an abrupt halt.

People would like to think that soldiers are machines that can be easily brainwashed, but everyone knows that murder is wrong. No one wants to be used as a puppet. These are people with family and wives and friends just like everyone else. They follow orders but many just do their job, collect their paycheck like everyone else. I doubt all the marines and army recruits are jumping up and down to get orders for the Middle-East.

You say that the military controls the soldiers, but it's not true. People can't be controlled. People go AWOL or desert their unit. They try and punish people when they disobey and reward people when they comply yet we know of cases were military officers were murdered by the marines they were supposed to manage, because they assigned them to suicide missions or they were just bad leaders.

The horror of war is that people only need one reason to start the war. The reason doesn't have to make since or even be true, as we've seen from studying previous wars. Send armed men to fight other armed people and that pretty much gets it going.

What I don't get is the old cliche: "all's fair in love and war."

I feel like comparing war to love is like comparing apples and oranges. If you are with soldiers at a camp site and the enemy ambushes you with helicopters, jets, tanks, and sends 10,000 troops to your 500, and every one of you slaughtered because you had a different flag; how is that comparable to being dumped by your lover? In what universe is being cheated on the same as someone tossing a grenade at you, showering the sky with poisonous gas, or using a flame thrower to kill anything in a 50 yard radius?

lori100: Lennon did use drugs, but when not on them he had a very fast, keen mind as many people stated. At the time of his murder he was recording his first album in years and preparing to go public again...this was a huge threat to the incoming Reagan admin. Lennon would have been able to rally maybe a million people against the Reagan policies ...they wanted him gone and likely had him murdered by a mind controlled assassin. -----------------Mind controlled assassins are very real....------------------ wanttoknow.info-------------------The Secret Agenda of Mind Control

Please note: the letters and numbers after each paragraph denote the book and page number from which the mind control information was taken. BB—Bluebird MC—Mind Controllers NB—A Nation Betrayed.



A declassified CIA document dated 7 Jan 1953 [1] describes the creation of multiple personality in 19-year old girls. "These subjects have clearly demonstrated that they can pass from a fully awake state to a deep H [hypnotic] controlled state ... by telephone, by receiving written matter, or by the use of code, signal, or words and that control of those hypnotized can be passed from one individual to another without great difficulty. It has also been shown by experimentation with these girls that they can act as unwilling couriers for information purposes." BB 32


Under the provisions of the National Security Act of 1947, the CIA was established. One of the main areas investigated by the CIA was mind control. The behavior control program was motivated by Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean use of mind control techniques. The CIA originated its first program in 1950 under the name BLUEBIRD. MKULTRA officially began in 1953. In 1973, tipped off about forthcoming investigations, CIA Director Richard Helms ordered the destruction of any MKULTRA records. [2] MC 3, 10, 17

The Senate Intelligence Committee did find some records during its investigation in 1976. Senator Frank Church, who led the congressional investigations of the CIA's unlawful actions, said that the agency was "a rogue elephant" operating above the law as it plotted assassinations, illegally spied on thousands of Americans, and even drugged citizens in its effort to develop new weapons for its covert arsenal. [3] In 1977, through a Freedom of Information Act request, 16,000 pages of mind control documents were found as part of the Agency's financial history. That is how this information has been pieced together. MC 5, 18, NB xvi, 38

The CIA Mind Control Projects



A CIA document dated 10 Feb 1954 [4] describes an experiment on the creation of unsuspecting assassins: "Miss [deleted] was then instructed (having expressed a fear of firearms) that she would use every method at her disposal to awaken Miss [deleted] (now in a deep hypnotic sleep) and failing this, she would pick up a pistol and fire it at Miss [deleted]. She was instructed that she would not hesitate to "kill." Miss [deleted] carried out these suggestions including firing the (unloaded) gun at [deleted]. After proper suggestions were made, both were awakened. Miss [deleted] expressed absolute denial that the foregoing sequence had happened." BB 36, 37


MKULTRA grew into a mammoth undertaking. The nature of the research included these specific problems:
•Can we create by post-H (hypnotic) control an action contrary to an individual's basic moral principles?
•Can we "alter" a person's personality? Can we guarantee total amnesia under any and all conditions?
•Could we seize a subject and in the space of an hour by post-H control have him crash an airplane?
•Can we devise a system for making unwilling subjects into willing agents and then transfer that control to untrained agency agents in the field by use of codes or identifying signs? NB 13, 14, 28 [5]



In a 1971 Science Digest article [6], Dr. G.H. Estabrooks states, "By the 1920's clinical hypnotists learned to split certain individuals into multiple personalities like Jeckyl-Hydes. During WWII, I worked this technique with a Marine lieutenant I'll call Jones. I split his personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a ‘normal' Marine, became entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed enthusiastically by communist cells, and was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge. Jones B was the deeper personality, knew all the thoughts of Jones A, and was ‘imprinted' to say nothing during conscious phases. All I had to do was hypnotize him, get in touch with Jones B, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist camp." BB 167-169 For more on CIA mind control projects, click here.

Dr. Jose Delgado, a neurosurgeon and Yale professor, [7][8][9] received funding for brain electrode research on children and adults. In the 1950s, he developed a miniature electrode placed within an individual's cranium capable of receiving and transmitting electronic signals. Delgado was able to control the movements of his subjects by pushing buttons on a remote transmitter. He demonstrated by wiring a fully-grown bull. With the device in place, Delgado stepped into the ring with the bull. The animal charged towards the experimenter – and then suddenly stopped, just before it reached him. The powerful beast had been stopped with the simple action of pushing a button on a small box held in Delgado's hand. [10] MC 147, BB 88

The Mind Control Doctors

In the second half of the 20th century, mind control projects resulted in extensive political abuse of psychiatry. Many thousands were subjected to unethical mind control experiments by leading psychiatrists and medical schools. Mind control experimentation was not only tolerated by medical professionals, but published in psychiatric and medical journals. Dr. William Sweet participated in both brain electrode implant experiments and the injection of uranium into medical patients at Harvard University. [11][12] Army doctors were involved in LSD testing at least until the late 1970's. Subjects of LSD experiments included children as young as five years old, and brain electrodes were implanted in children as young as 11 years of age. BB, pg. K, 1, 21

Linda MacDonald was a victim of Dr. Ewen Cameron's [13][14][15][16] destructive mind control experiments in 1963. Dr. Cameron was president of the American and World Psychiatric Associations. He used a "treatment" which involved intensive application of these brainwashing techniques; drug disinhibition, prolonged sleep, and prolonged psychological isolation. These were combined with ECT [Electro Convulsive Therapy]. [17][18][19] The amount of electricity introduced into Linda's brain exceeded by 76.5 times the maximum amount recommended. Dr. Cameron's technique resulted in permanent and complete amnesia. A class action suit against the CIA for Dr. Cameron's MKULTRA experiments was settled out of court for $750,000, divided among eight plaintiffs in 1988. BB 126, 181-187 For more on the mind control doctors, click here.



26 July 1963, Memorandum For: Director of Central Intelligence [20] From: CIA Inspector General------

"The concepts involved in manipulating behavior are found by many people both within and outside the Agency [CIA] to be distasteful and unethical. Nevertheless, there have been major accomplishments both in research and operational employment. Over the ten-year life of the program many additional avenues to the control of human behavior have been designated under the MKULTRA charter, including radiation, electro-shock, and harassment substances. Some activities raise questions of legality implicit in the original charter. A final phase of the testing places the rights and interests of US citizens in jeopardy. "

Technical Services Division initiated a program for covert testing of materials on unwitting US citizens in 1955. TSD has pursued a philosophy of minimum documentation in keeping with the high sensitivity of the projects. Some files contained little or no data at all. There are just two individuals in TSD who have full knowledge of the MKULTRA program. NB 108-113
----------------------------------------keep in mind Bush Sr. was the Director of the CIA in charge of these abuse programs.....---one of the govts many psychopaths....

lori100: “History is the study of the world's crime”
― Voltaire

Metaverseguy: Voltaire was a funny guy. He has so many good quotes. Makes the French culture so much more interesting.

Metaverseguy: More quotes about history:

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." - Winston Churchill
"The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain
"I like the dreams of the future better than the history of the past." - Thomas Jefferson
"I came, I saw, I conquered." - Julius Ceasar
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Metaverseguy: Wouldn't you rather the military just all used paintball guns? I'd rather the next generations read about The Paintball Wars rather than The Sand Wars.

SWlNE: That's a good question.

I don't think it is the overall aim of History, it should be there to document events, unfortunately writers/educators can be bias. Persons do use it to guilt others or to justify a wrong, an example of this is the Holocaust, while different groups suffered in WW2 I've seen some Israel-supports use the slogan "never again" to justify actions that other countries will not engage in without criticism. There are also some who call for reparations for slavery and also call for others to apologise for slavery. This isn't coming from 'History' but on individuals using it for that purpose.
Our past is flooded with warfare, so no surprise our History will have more documents of those wars.. the thing is people don't know how to let go and deal with the present instead of piggy-backing on the past. The past can be learnt from but not used as a guilt-trip or an irrational excuse.

davidk14: .

For those that are unaware of the term 'never again' that ALL Jews believe,

"...The import of the slogan was that Jews would never again allow themselves to be slaughtered indiscriminately by those who hate them. It was not only the scope of the Holocaust that would never again be repeated, but the idea behind that atrocity - that Jews should be killed merely for being Jewish - would also never again be tolerated."

http://www.torah.org/features/israelmatters/neveragain.html

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Metaverseguy: I notice you have a flag of Israel and the USA. Israel of course was independent largely from the post-war efforts of the allied powers. Why the Jews allowed Exodus and the Inquisition and then finally the Holocaust before saying enough is enough I'll never understand. I'm atheist so I don't believe any religion is true, including Judaism, so I'm not really too sympathetic with their other "chosen people" slogan, even though I think genocide is wrong. Why so many Jews consider themselves a race of people I also won't ever understand. I think people confuse race with religion. Middle-eastern would be a race. Israeli also wouldn't be a race just like Canadian, Russian, or American are not races but nations. If I was alive during the time in WW2 Germany I probably would have tried to make every effort possible to get into Brazil as the extermination of the Jews became a more sinister and real goal of the Nazis.

davidk14: .

Since you are an atheist, you are incapable of understanding.

You said you do not understand how Jews would believe the Nazi's and board trains to start a new life. Jews would then walk into the gas chambers and be slaughtered. Jews of that era were pacifists. Real pacifists. They believed that God would protect them from evil.

Well, for 6 million Jews, that would not happen.

Since then, Jews have a piece of historical land which is 260 miles by 70 miles, the size of the state of New Jersey, and we have vowed to never again allow anyone to practice or believe in the Genocide of Jews. HAmas practices on a daily basis of fulfilling its committment towards the complete elimination of Jews. There are 5 million Jews living in the Jewish State of Israel. There are 5 million living in the US. The rest are scattered around the worlds population of 7+ billion of which 2 billion are Islamist's which most live in Muslim Sharia countries.

Instead of bashing Jews, perhaps a real honest look that the enemy of freedom... Sharia. Stop blaming the Jews. Jews represent .7% of the worlds population. Muslims represent 28.6% of the worlds population. And the Sharia threat is from whom?

And once again, perhaps you can not understand since you are atheist.

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SWlNE: WW2 was an attack on many groups; homosexuals, communist, other races etc. It leaves no one in the 'I-am-special' position. Each group has been faced with problems. I don't agree with stating that because something happened in the past, it gives someone the right to go against the laws that other groups have to follow.
I don't know why someone consider it a race as there are many different 'races' who follow Judaism, I position it as a religion too, as Islam is made up of different groups.

Irish Toaster: Interesting topic. I think History can focus too much on warfare and while interesting and worthwhile, I am glad to see (at least at my college) a shift to other aspects of History. Many facets of History should be included not just the grand Empires but how people lived and how they thought. It provides such an eye-opener to the world we live in today and how countries act on the world stage, how their citizens act and think etc etc

Metaverseguy: I think it's really hard to imagine what life was like from their perspective. Going 500-1000 years back they really didn't have very much. People had inaccurate maps to travel, no giant infrastructures that provided them with electricity, water, social welfare. Almost no one went to college. Some towns were very small so I don't know how news traveled around. How could they enforce crime back then without fingerprinting and other forensic techniques? Plus if you were hungry good luck. There wasn't a giant food chain stocking the shelves with tasty food all day long. Maybe a loaf of bread. And healthcare? They didn't understand bacteria, or how to do surgery, and most of their medical procedures have been debunked as more harmful. About 50% of the children died during child birth or within the first 5 years.

Every country had human rights violations that no one enforced. People were sacrificing virgins to the gods or burning atheists at the stake. Slavery was accepted as common. A lot of people had no clue what caused different weather patterns or natural disasters and just assumed it was all from displeasing god. Since different nations were constantly at war you can imagine how they refused to help them during famine. I doubt people were donating money and time to help starving people from Arabia if they were from Europe and vice versa.

No one cares about animal rights now and probably 5% of people or less are vegetarian/vegan so you can imagine that there were probably about 0% a millennium ago. They didn't have any advanced technology or cars. No one even uses a railroad now but it probably took 6 months to travel from the East Coast to the West Coast before the transcontinental railroad existed. I guess I could go on for quite awhile.

duncan124:

Vegetarian/vegan life styles have been followed in India for thousands of years. Just saying.

Metaverseguy: Interesting. I've heard that Hindus aren't supposed to eat beef.