JFK 50 years and still people believe conspiracies. (Page 28)

refurbwoodart: Well the crime scene investigator who did this PBS special said it was the most logical explanation for him to explain why every person around the parade route smelled gunpowder,and the only projectile that hit him came from the left rear exited the right. The book depository was on his right rear so it would have been opposite. The bullet also hit the mayor in the front right seat of the car if I remember right his right shoulder went thru the seat but wasn't fatal. He also said the wind on that day and the distance just could not possibly support the theory of another shooter on the grassy hole and that is also on the right passenger side of the car. And the only person carrying a .223 cal. Rifle (AR-15) was walking on the left rear of the car. That would also cause reason the democrats have been trying to ban AR-15's ever since that happened. Just made most sense out of all the theories I had heard before.

refurbwoodart: A .223 cal. Round is a great weapon for good penetration and usually would if shot from any distance bounce around inside the body and bounce off bones. Thats why it is the same round as an m-16 the military issue weapon. The AR-15 is the semi automatic version. But if shot from close its such a small round it just goes straight thru. So that explains the shot that went thru him,the seat and hit the mayor and exited him as well. Had it been shot from the depository it would have lost enough velocity that after it entered it was more likely it would have bounced around inside him.

chronology: Refurb. 'every person in the parade route' what people in what parade route? Every single photo you see of Dallas that day is from Dealey Plaza. Not one single photograph from anywhere else in Dallas, does that not strike you as strange.

And let's look at those people in Dealey, or at least let's try to. Some are seen stood at the pavement in the Z movie. The same people vanish into thin air when seen in other movie's or photographs. It is clearly obvious that the movie's and photos were taken some time prior to the hoax, most likely in the practice runs that took place in Dallas. Lacking the same skills as Hollywood the continuity is wrong in all the different films and photos.
This is where conspiracy theorists get the evidence back to front. They accuse the FBI and others of tampering with the films and photographs. In fact the FBI would have been just as bewildered as everyone else by the inconsistency in the photographs and movie evidence.

And I ask you to consider this simple streight forward fact. Do you not think it impossibly strange that actual movie film of a supposed murder is sent to New York City before Dallas PD even has a opportunity to examine that movie? at the very time they are questioning a man for the murder seen in that movie? Same with many photographs, they were sent out to New York City before Dallas PD even saw them while they were reportedly questioning Lee about the supposed crime.

And let's remember Lee supposedly under arrest by Dallas PD for murder. A reporter who was in the Police Station Lee was held in commented later he had never seen anything like that. Lee was walking around from room to room in full view of the press for hours, at one point a reporter later remembered him stood with Jack Ruby. They were all like Actors in a movie not people dealing with a historic crime.

May I say, am not accusing Dallas Police of any wrong doing. They were rock solid loyal American's and still are. Am sure everything they did was for the American people that day.

Like some folks say, the entire hoax was most likely to give the United States Government the opportunity to demand the removal of the Communist Government in Cuba. Which was seen at the time as the greatest potential threat to American safety. Due to Soviet Communist missiles being located there.
Folks in Dallas PD were and are good loyal American's one and all. People accusing them of conspiracy against the United States Government should try and do some real research about that strange day in Dallas.

MJ59:

natureguy8899: Refurb, I can't emphasis enough to watch the documentary "JFK - The Smoking Gun" it costs 3-4 bucks on youtube but it explains the gunshot that hit Kennedy's head. The .223 bullet is what's called a frangible round which breaks up when it hits something hard like a skull.

natureguy8899: Chron, You are right about the people wanting us to go to war with Cuba in order to get rid of Castro and his regime. Joe Kennedy told the mob if they helped get his son elected President he would get his son to take out Castro and then the mob would get their cuba casinos back. The Kennedy's double crossed the mob, appointed Robert Kennedy Attorney General and Bobby went after the mob. That's why the mob killed JFK. The shot in the back of JFK's head was accidental.

chronology: Nature, I have looked at most of the speculation that organised crime killed JFK. You believe that they did. I believe JFK never even died in Dallas that day.

The most often talked about connection between Lee and organised crime is his supposed connection to Mr Carlos Marcello. Lee's uncle was a bookie's runner and driver for Mr Marcello. Supposedly.
Asked if he ever met Lee Mr Marcello said no, he never met him. There has never been a single shred of evidence anywhere found connecting Mr Marcello to Lee in the JFK story.

There has been a curious document discovered in Washington DC among State Department Records that Bobby Kennedy was briefed about Lee's return from the Soviet Union. Bobby as Head of the Justice Department was asked supposedly what charges were to be brought against Lee. It would be just routine for the State Department to ask the DoJ what action they planned to take in such a case.

No charges were brought against Lee. But we see a connection years before the supposed shooting between Lee and JFK. There is even some speculation amongst friends of JFK and Bobby that they both planned to meet with Lee to ask him about life in Russia. Who knows if the seed of the hoax was not planted during the meeting with Lee if it did in fact take place.

One theory among folks in the hoax community is that Lee had no idea what was going down that day in Dallas. For example there was another person who looked exactly like Lee walking around in the TSBD. This has been established by at least two witness statements. One secretary saw Lee as he was walking through her Office floor upstairs. Another witness saw Lee eating a sandwich at exactly the same time down in the canteen.

The best evidence we have about JFK even being in Dallas that day is at Love Airfield. But even that seems unlikely. Photographs of JFK clearly show him with no bullet proof vest at all. Walking around stranger's at an Airfield with no bullet proof vest at all? Give us a break.

And remember, there is no photographs at all of JFK that day, except in Dealy Plaza and at Love Airfield.

natureguy8899: Chron, I don’t understand why you don’t believe JFK was killed in Dallas, my guess is you are bsing about that.
As far as Oswald and Marcello being seen together. One book I read, “Mr New Orleans” about a pimp in New Orleans, Frenchy Broulette, said he saw Oswald when he was out on Marcello’s ranch. In another book I read recently a guy by the name of Gianni Russo, the guy that played Carlo in the movie the Godfather, was going see Marcello’s in his restaurant and almost bumped into Oswald coming out of where Marcello was sitting. Russo was a runner for Frank Costello. So they had obviously been in the same room together. I read in another book that had been seen together but I can’t remember the name of that one. So that is three different occasions that they had been seen together.
I doubt very much that RFK or JFK ever met with Oswald. A meeting with Oswald and the feds would have been carried out by the FBI or CIA.
I have never come across any evidence if Oswald had any knowledge of what was going down. He might have known because he said “I’m just a patsy”. That tells me he figured it out.
I have seen lots of pictures of JFK in Dallas. And as far as a bulletproof vest, they probably didn’t wear them because of the bulk plus there was so many secret service agents to protect him.

chronology: Just answer this question. A murder has taken place. A man has actual movie film of that murder. A suspect is being held for the murder. Without telling Dallas PD, a pressman purchases the film and flys it out of Dallas. Dallas PD were not even told about that film or the other photographs that were sold on the spot in Dealey Plaza to press men. You still hold to the notion of a murder that day? Dallas has a no nonsense police force, if they were investigating a murder they would have thrown every press man in jail who did such things.
Why do you think that the FBI gave the film such a cool reception after viewing it in Washington D C? I believe it is because they knew that they were being played.
RFKs handling of Oswald remains a mystery. The State Department gave him a memo asking him to review Lee's case as he was about to return to the USA. A friend of RFK said he wanted to meet Lee. We have no idea if he did. Lee should have been charged with at least 3 serious offences, he was not charged with any.

And let's go back to the evidence. According to the Marines, they 'lost' JFKs body for over an hour in Washington when it arrived from Dallas. Legally this meant that it should never been used in any trial in the USA. It had been out of the supervision of Authorities.

You seriously still think that all this points to a real murder? Or some kind of weird conspiracy? It all points to a hoax.

chronology: You say you have seen lot's of photos of JFK in Dallas that day. Really? Yes you have seen photos of him in Dealey Plaza. Those photos were most likely taken some weeks before when JFK was taking part in the Trial run through Dealey with Governor Connelly. There is not a single photograph of JFK taken by any member of the public during the drive through that November day in Dallas taken outside Dealey Plaza. Why? Some claim it is because folks in Dallas knew that there was a body double sitting in for JFK and they were offended by the disrespect shown them by this. Maybe, but why the trial run if he was just using doubles, a common practice with top politicians.

You say Lee knew nothing of the hoax. Maybe, but which Lee are you referring to? At least two people who looked almost identical have been noted as Lee Oswald characters. One walked away from the TSBD to catch a bus ride home. The other ran to a station wagon and was driven away. At the time of the shooting, or a few minutes after, one was upstairs walking through a Office, another was downstairs in the canteen.

A very telling question that Det Will Fritz asked Lee was 'who are you, are you Lee Oswald or AJ Hidell' . Some suggest that Det Fritz had been told that Alex Hotel looked exactly like Lee Oswald. You say Lee was seen with Mr Marcello. If the report was true, just who was seen with Mr Marcello, Lee or Alex Hidel?

MJ59: Conspiracies will always be here

datigian56: to all the nut jobs who think 9/11 was inside job take a look at the news of the day millions of people saw the planes crash into the 2 towers its a fact the planes. Where controlled by terrorist bin laden himself said he planed it an the fact is they had pictures of the terrorist who flew the planes there is tons of facts that show the buildings where blown up from the top not the bottom has people claim.

natureguy8899: Yes I have seen lot’s of pic’s of JFK in Dealey Plaza. JFK would not be involved in a drive-though some weeks before.
The only reason people saw two people who looked like Oswald is because he had an alias, AJ Hindel, and probably some knew him as his alias and the others knew him as LHO. No mystery there.
Marcello knew LHO, he worked for Marcello as did LHO’s uncle.

natureguy8899: I was watching the tv when the second plane hit the other tower and right then I knew we were under attack. Then came the Pentagon and a 4th crashed out in the country.

chronology: Nature, there are photographs of Governor Connelly and JFK rehearsing the Dallas Drive through. I admit the photographs do not show Dallas and could have been taken anywhere, but there was definitely some kind of rehearsal before the Dallas Drive through.

natureguy8899: I don't understand why they would waste the President's time with a drive through. Makes no sense. I can see the secret service doing a drive through but not the Pres.

chronology: If it was a hoax as some claim, the photographs and movie film would need to be filmed in advance so that on the day they could be sent to Washington DC. But the muted response in Washington shows DC had reservations about what they were seeing from the start.
I do not know if you are aware, but a TV station in New York City showed a movie film of the supposed assassination on the night of Nov 22nd on TV News . It seems unlikely to have been the Zepruda movie, so just what did New Yorkers see that night? And why are so many people unaware of the film? My own take on this is that the action in the film was out of kilter with the other movie, the Z movie.
The Z Movie and photographs taken some time prior as well are also out of kilter with each other, the FBI and other experts would have picked up on this within hours of analysing the pictures and Z Movie. But folks like yourself miss the mistakes streight away. They sail past you, because you aren't looking for something you don't even suspect.

chronology: Nature, reference your take on two Oswalds that day in Dallas. There is overwhelming evidence that there were two people who looked alike there in Dallas that day.
A Office Secretary saw 'Lee' upstairs. A warehouse assistant saw 'Lee' at exactly the same time sat munching a sandwich in the ground floor canteen. The secretary insisted she saw Lee. Another man saw Lee just after the supposed shooting run to a station wagon. Another man saw Lee walk out of staff door and say he was going to buy a sandwich then go home.
The next confirmed sightseeing of Lee was running into a movie theatre. But there was already a person like Lee in the theatre. The famous photograph shows Lee being dragged out of the front door of the theatre. But another witness saw Lee being led out of the back door at the Same time.

There seems to have been a double of Marina Oswald as well. You can see Marina on YouTube explaining how American Officials took her to places where she was supposed to have been with Lee. She insisted that she had never been to any of those places.

natureguy8899: Carolyn Arnold’s FBI Statements
Support for Lee Harvey Oswald’s Alibi
Carolyn Arnold, a secretary working for the Texas School Book Depository, provided support for Lee Harvey Oswald’s alibi, that he had been on the first (i.e. ground) floor of the TSBD at the time of President Kennedy’s assassination. According to the two FBI agents who attended Oswald’s first interview:
OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building.
(Warren Report, p.613)

chronology: Yes and another witness places Lee on one of the higher floors at the same time. Asked if she was mistaken she said 'well if it was not him it was his twin brother'.

Nature, consider this simple observation. Lee is a man who reportedly all his life lived and breathed politics. He had such strong feelings about politics he left the United States and denounced his passport. And yet we are to believe that he sat in the canteen munching a sandwich while the most important politician in the world drove past outside?
It never happened. You are just reading a script from a movie. Don't be embarrassed, even the FBI and others were fooled by the story for a day or two. Then they started noticing all the mistakes and inconsistencies in the movie and photos.

Lee does seem an enigma. But we are left asking 'which Lee'. Even the U.S.M.C. it seems were bewildered it seems. A week or so after the supposed shooting two Marine Officers flew to Dallas from Japan to speak with Dallas Detective's. Probably to discuss the details of the man Dallas PD had arrested. Lee's hight and weight did not match the man in Dallas.

natureguy8899: Yes, someone did see Oswald on a higher floor, the second floor when he went up to get a coke for his lunch. Please reread what Carol Arnold and Oswald stated.

natureguy8899: And if you can provide me where I can see the drive by rehearsal I would appreciate it.

chronology: Nature. No, a secretary saw Lee walking through a higher floor of Offices. She remembered this because warehouse staff were not usually allowed to walk through the offices.

As far as I know there is no specific details of any practice drive through in Dealey. It would be very surprising if there were. Evidence for a practice of some kind can be seen in the evidence on film of people stood in different places while the Presidential Limo drives through Dealey. Also different people stood in places in Movie films and photographs from Dealey. This could only have happened from a previous drive through in Dealey. Check out those photographs. There is even one showing a notably absent Abraham Zapruda on the place he filmed his movie.

When you do research on the photograph and movie evidence of Dealey, don't make the mistake virtually all researchers do and fall into the hole of thinking some vast conspiracy altered the photographs and movie film after the event. The FBI and others were probably as surprised as anyone else by the mixed up images. But all the mixing happened before the film's were sent to DC.

natureguy8899: That’s right, someone, a secretary ok, saw Oswald on a higher floor than the first floor. Oswald said he went to the second floor to get a coke and I read that someone saw him at the coke machine. How long does it take to go up a flight of stairs, 10 – 15 seconds? So with this in mind if someone were looking at their watch Oswald could be in two places at the same time.

natureguy8899: Again, please direct me to any photographic evidence. A picture of the grassy knoll without Zapruder standing there is not evidence. The picture could have been taken before or after the assassination.