Southern states remain woefully uneducated (Page 4)
OCD_OCD: Here's my take on education and religion. Keep religion in private schools. Keep the government's social engineering agenda out of public schools. Education is meant to be educational, not daycare for kids who don't want an education or for kids whose parents could care less if they get an education because they're bringing the rest of the kids down.
Government makes you teach to the level of the dumbest (or laziest) in the class so all that does is hinder the ones who want to learn. Education is a privilege, not a right. If you don't want to be intelligent, then don't go to school...but don't whine or demand MY help when the only job you can get is flipping burgers or mopping floors.
OCD_OCD: Education would be worth more if we didn't have high school graduates who were functionally illiterate. Don't pass them, fail them.
The government doesn't want to "put them down" so they go ahead and pass them, which is completely pointless. If you don't understand but 30% of what you learn that year, you're going to understand even less the next year.
davesdatahut: O, we are probably veering off into a broader topic of our educational problems in general in America, which surely is part of this. But I also am curious why the educational levels in the south continue to lag behind. And what needs to be done to change that.
OCD_OCD: I think we've talked about this before. There are pockets of un- and under-educated communities throughout the US. In the south we have the majority of non-English speaking/illegal aliens. The majority of our legalized and illegal aliens (from Hispanic countries) do not value an education because it is not part of their standard culture and/or they drop out early to get jobs or have children.
You may think I'm hacking away at Hispanics, but the numbers are what they are. Conversely, we have many aliens, both illegal and legalized from other countries such as Korea, China, Russia, etc., who excel in academia because their society (and their families) demand and expect it of them. Naturally, not all Hispanics fail and not all Koreans, Chinese and Russians excel, but there is such an obvious difference in the rates that it is impossible to ignore.
Another problem are white and black families who are the products of the generational welfare culture. Our welfare system holds these families back in many ways and does nothing to promote their self-respect or their desire to achieve anything because they are too comfortable accepting their allotment and would be going backwards if they had to take a job commiserate with their educational or skill level. It's a no-win situation.
OCD_OCD: One thing we need to do is quit passing kids who cannot read, write or have even rudimentary mathematical skills. We should also get over the fact that everyone is expected to go to college because 1) not everyone is capable of achieving the minimum level of education to even get accepted and 2) the world is not comprised of jobs that require a college education. There just aren't enough jobs for everyone to be a CEO. We need and depend on a skilled labor force.
Kids who are promoted beyond their ability can grow frustrated and give up on education altogether whereas if they were given an education with an option to branch off into a curriculum which would be commiserate with their ability, they could become skilled professionals. Why can't kids be given a choice?
There are some kids who are never going to pass Calc 1 or Calc 2 in High School. Hell, many of them can't figure out Trig. They can't read well enough to pass an English Lit course because they can't read, much less write essays.
We need to give them TOOLS, not pats on the back and a boost up to the next grade where their level of competency is even more abysmal. Make it OK for them to be something other than a CEO and let them feel good about it.
Most of the major fortunes in the US were made by people with less than an 8th grade education. People seem to forget that. Help them strive for something they show an ability for rather than giving them something that is worthless, but free.
(Edited by OCD_OCD)
OCD_OCD: That is said for all children, not just children of the south. It's for Cleveland and Detroit (now there's a mess of untold proportions), Chicago, Appalachia, East LA, etc.
near50ohoh: ocd, to a point. however, the big bad world awaits for these kids. and they need to be kept up. on the opposite side, ik a prof at a well reputed univ who cannot read or write. that doesnt mean he lacks brains to do incredible work. and he does in a very stringent field too
davesdatahut: OCD, I'm still going to differ on the ethnic angle when it comes to the South because there just aren't very many Hispanics in southern states outside of Texas and Florida. So that really shouldn't be that much of a factor in most southern states. Beyond the south, that factor certainly does loom large because Hispanics have yet to fully embrace the educational system. It's changing. But culturally, education hasn't been important for a lot of the Hispanic groups. Is it because they don't come from places where education is very good? Is it something else? Not sure. Hopefully, that changes real fast,. since their numbers are growing so fast.
The other factor you mention probably is a lot bigger, as the welfare system certainly does not promote getting educated and getting ahead. Economics and the agricultural base of the economy that didn't require as much education in the past probably are other factors.
Why it doesn't change, though, is troubling and threatens to widen the income gap between the south and the rest of the country.
How to fix it is a very complicated matter. I totally agree that kids should not be just passed through the system because does them absolutely no good. I also assume, lacking any reason to think otherwise, that there are a lot of kids in those undereducated southern states that would go to college if there was an attitude shift in people's view of college AND some more financial aid for kids who now can't afford it. It makes no sense that kids, or people in the South, are inherently dumber than in the rest of the country.
There are other factors at play too...racism that keeps black kids down, segregation patterns, bureaucratic problems....too big a topic to fully cover here...probably for another thread.
davesdatahut: Akarich, you're talking about one of the same things I was trying to get at - the attitudinal problem. You put it well. And it's troubling, to say the least, for the future of the country.
The question, in this day and age, is why? Why does that anti-education attitude persist, when it's getting so much harder to make it in the economy with just a high school education? What keeps that attitude from changing? Is it that some people think that acting smart or getting educated will make them seem better than others or too much like liberal northerners? And how is that fixed?
Lots of factors going on in this equation...
OCD_OCD: Dave, racism and segregation is a 60's thing. What makes you think that people in the south are such raging racists? What are you reading?
davesdatahut: OCD, it's not a thing of the 60s. It's still a thing of today. But I should clarify what I'm saying. I certainly do not mean to suggest that people in the south are raging racists. I'm actually talking about that problem as more of a nationwide issue. To deny it is to deny part of the state of this country.
You still have widespread neighborhood segregation in the United States. In the South. Here in the North. Everywhere. White neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods. This does not happen by accident. Certainly partly by choice. But also by design. You still have segregated patterns of living regardless of income levels and that leads to segregated schools and uneven levels of education. I dealt with this for years in my job. It is not a problem that has gone away - and certainly not an issue exclusive to the South.
Right here where I live - very middle-class and almost totally white. A few miles away, another middle-class area...almost all black. That's not an accident and it leads to divisions that starts in the schools and goes from there. In poorer areas - generally black or HIspanic areas - you have truly rotten schools that society does not seem to have the will to fix.
Stassi SUR: Your description of Southern States as " woefully uneducated " is derogatory. It's like saying Southern folks who live there are a bunch of illiterate Honey Boo Boo hillbillies type. Very insulting. I think this is where Nadia is coming from.
Prominent Southerners like Bill Clinton, John Edwards, Al Gore, Ted Turner, Paula Dean, Jessie Jackson (even Elvis and Martin Luther King Jr, if alive) are not going to be happy with you denigrating the South. Yes, I googled the names of prominent Southerners.
OCD_OCD: Self segregation is neither a good or a bad thing. There are Italian, German, Scandanavian, Jewish, Muslim, gay, Korean, etc. neighborhoods. Some people prefer to live in areas of people who have the same social, religious and ethnic areas where they are comfortable within their societies. It has more to do with the culture they know than any racial animus, Dave. People have a right to live where where they choose and associate with whom they choose.
I am not going to move to a primarily Muslim or Jewish or Korean or Hispanic neighborhood because I don't understand their religious rituals nor do I understand their language or culture, but that doesn't mean that we can't be friends on an individual basis. It is about comfort levels, not racism.
Are there racists? Sure there is. Racism is not a one way street. Every race, religion and ethnicity has their own and as a "white" person, I refuse to let anyone tell me what I am based on their personal bias or their own racism. The constant use of the racism card is being used more to excuse for doing something you know is wrong.
Not everyone is going to like everyone else and the reason cannot always be blamed on race. There are jerks in every race, religion and sexual preference and I have the right to dislike a person because they are an asshole without them dragging up the race card.
harlett anathema: when you have hungry children,those children are thinking of nothing else...
when you have children,being neglected of parenting,you have children unable to focus..
when you have children being raised by folks carping & cursing Life & living in General.. you have children who do....
To reach many children....you have too be inventive & creative in the ways you EDUCATE them...
there is so much white-washed written into actual history that children pick up on it..These children are being raised by experts at the art of at home..why listen too your's....
Social education should be the primary focus in their early years..Where they are taught HOW to socialize,read & write.....once you get their minds engaged....they will want too know more about how too handle LIFE & LIVING and what possibilities there are for them....& where a education can take them...
engaging children in the conversation of learning will lead too them wanting too think and take part....
and before i move on.....Children who are hungry usually are suffering with severe constipation and or irritable bowels are dehydrated as well...
harlett anathema: OH YEAH...African American CHILDREN need too be GIVEN vitamins made especially for THEM...They need Vitamin D and few other specific vitamins.. too beat biological depression brought on by lack of....the melatonin in their skin blocks the sun from boosting their natural body chemistry bank....
go on read the list..of what lack of vitamin D brings onto a AFRICAN AMERICAN....
OCD_OCD: harlett, I love you to death, but why is it my, or the government's, responsibility to make sure that dark skinned people take their vitamins any more than it is the responsibility if dark skinned individuals, or the government, for making sure that light skinned people wear sun block? It is common sense, not racial discrimination.
OCD_OCD: I know you and know that you are trying to do the right thing, but there are good and bad mothers of all races. It is a reflection in their parenting skills, not their race, if they choose not to care for their children properly.
davesdatahut: Stassi, I said nothing of the sort. I said southern states remain woefully uneducated. The stats bear it out, and it's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. If you want, I can temper that and say 'undereducated' or 'less educated.' But it is what it is. As a nation, we should recognize it, confront it and fix it before the educational and income divide between the South and the rest of the country gets even worse.
I'd take a guess that all those prominent southerners might agree with those various points.
OCD_OCD: A paper education means little when you have no skills and need a job. A diploma also means nothing when you live off social services and don't see the need for an education. That is a universal truth, not one of any specific region, religion or ethnicity.
Inner city schools need too be structured differently then lets say beverly hills schools... don't ya think.....
what motivates beverly hills students isn't motivating INNER CITY KIDS is it............so why try and hold them too that style and standard of educating them..You can't educate the unable too focus...You can't engage a audience of un parented children whose only being lectured..
Federal government made education it's business... if it's failing certain area's under it's wing then it needs too study that why for and solve that PROBLEM..
If parents aren't feeding their children properly or regularly enough then making sure their children took their vitamins wouldn't be a priority with them either........
those children rely on upon PUBLIC HEALTH programs.... making sure they have at least two sound meals a day and some snacks at school shouldn't be a big deal problem ...and the perfect place too make sure they received and took those vitamins....
i once upon a time a long time ago.... longed too be a public health NURSE.. who banged on doors... & then took care of who was inside...I was in single digit age.. so it be pointless too mock me... now...
OCD_OCD: Texas has the Robin Hood plan and they distribute resources from more populous areas to rural and disadvantaged districts, so money and resources is not an issue. Parents who don't care and students who don't bother is.