Southern states remain woefully uneducated (Page 2)
OCD_OCD: I don't see a coincidence because I see no correlation. There would have to be a lot more data than exists to show religion as a common denominator.
Are there more degrees granted to atheists than Christians, Muslims, Buddhists? Do agnostics or atheists as a group have a higher IQ, better physical and mental development? I can't see where there are any studies or facts to prove or disprove anything as it relates to religion.
davesdatahut: So if you see no correlation, then it would have to be a coincidence, no? Two factors that co-exist, but have to statistical relevance.
Lacking any studies pointing yay or nay on the question, I think more data would be needed, and then run thru a regression analysis. But knowing what we know about how backward organized religion can be.....I still suspect a connection. No doubt a debate we won't be able to resolve.
nadiaovrthere: nonsensical to use number of college degrees per capita to determine “education level” of a state…absolutely no accounting of people from the south with degrees who’ve moved to other states for employment or vice versa.
either track enrollment at southern colleges vs. northern colleges or high school graduates per capita per state. you will find that every major metropolitan city, the larger the worse off, has an education problem.
(Edited by nadiaovrthere)
davesdatahut: To the contrary Nadia, this is the best measure of the educational level of a state - the percentage of adults aged 25 and older with a college degree. That speaks directly to the level of education among the adults from one state to the next. The measure you suggest, while interesting and useful, does not exist. No one counts it. I suspect it would actually hurt the South to measure that, as many college grads from up north have moved to the South in recent years for jobs and cheaper housing. Take them outta the mix and the South looks even worse. But I'm just guessing on that.
As for whether every major metropolitan city has an education problem, I would be interested in how you come to that conclusion. In fact, and I'd be happy to pull the stats, the percentage of college degrees varies considerably from one city to the next.
davesdatahut: you are outta this discussion trying to ppl from down.....sure, that makes perfect sense.
OCD_OCD: Dave, what studies show that lack of education in the southern states is caused by religion?
davesdatahut: None at all. I was just throwing that out there as food for thought or discussion. I suspect a connection, but I don't know of any studies showing a direct correlation.
nadiaovrthere: dave…since it’s clear you have an agenda to denigrate people solely by where they live or where they’re from you’ve relied too much on your ‘confirmation bias’ (google it if you don’t know what it is) and not critical thinking ability! Counting college degrees simply tells you how many people have college degrees and not a single thing more…nothing…you seem to be trying to imply the south if full of stupid people…a simple example if you’re able to put your preconceived bias aside…if one state has 3 people with harvard degrees and one state has 5 people with state school degrees which state is better educated?
“The measure you suggest, while interesting and useful, does not exist. No one counts it.” – this belies the fact you really have no idea what you’re talking about…i’m in the education field and one of the most compiled data sets is high school graduates per capita per city…that’s what determines federal educational aid!
lastly…you really don’t see the educational problems of every major metropolitan city?? really?? detroit schools are in academic emergency, boston schools academic emergency, most new york city schools academic emergency, los angeles city schools academic emergency, and the list goes on and on…so again; if you were actually in academia, instead of just voicing a bias, you’d understand how nonsensical every single thing you’ve said truly is!
davesdatahut: Nadia, your assumptions about my agenda notwithstanding, let me address your points.
1. <<if one state has 3 people with harvard degrees and one state has 5 people with state school degrees which state is better educated? >>
The state with the 5 degrees is better educated. Quite obviously. You have more people with degrees. That is exactly my point about the undereducated southern states. They have very low percentages of adults with degrees. Ergo, they are less educated.
2. <<This belies the fact you really have no idea what you’re talking about…i’m in the education field and one of the most compiled data sets is high school graduates per capita per city…that’s what determines federal educational aid!>>
I am pleased that you are in the education field. Yazoo. Based on how you replied to me, I am somewhat suspect of this claim. But I'll accept it as true. I am not pleased, however, that you don't read what I type. I'm not talking about high school degrees. I'm talking about college degrees. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no data set compiled about how many northerners with degrees live in the south, or southerners with degrees who live in the north. That was my point. If I am wrong, please cite them and i will check them out.
There IS plenty of data on college degrees per capita, by state, based on who lives there. This is what I am referring to.
3. <<you really don’t see the educational problems of every major metropolitan city?? really?? detroit schools are in academic emergency, boston schools academic emergency, most new york city schools academic emergency, los angeles city schools academic emergency, and the list goes on and on…so again; if you were actually in academia, instead of just voicing a bias, you’d understand how nonsensical every single thing you’ve said truly is!>>
At what point did I say, or even hint, that I saw no educational problems in every major city? I said the educational levels between cities vary considerably. Why you jumped to the conclusion you did, I do not know. But this can sometimes happen. Even among academics, who sometimes consider themselves to be really really sharp, from their lofty perch.
Despite the fact that it's not what this thread is about, I WILL agree that our cities have enormous educational problems in their public school systems. Huge. Big. Lots. Many. We can start a separate thread on all the issues that have combined to create those problems, for they are many.
Perhaps, in the meantime, you would like to take a bit of time and read what people write here before snorting away. (I was going to end that statement with an exclamation point, But you seem to have enough of them for the both of us!)
davesdatahut: Forgot to add number 4....
4. <<so again; if you were actually in academia, instead of just voicing a bias, you’d understand how nonsensical every single thing you’ve said truly is! >>
Shall I glean from your wisdom that if one is not in academia, that, uhhh, welllll, one...is...just...voicing....a.........bias?
Interesting concept. Let me mull that one for a bit.
nadiaovrthere: david…the hole you dig for yourself is getting deeper and deeper!
1…your nonsensical logic is this…the state with 5 degrees from a state institution is better educated simply because there are 5 and 5 is bigger than 3 so it must be true! that’s utter stupidity…your bias is preventing you from understanding the differences in education (i.e. quality, curriculum, competition vs. other top students, etc etc…if you had a single ounce of critical thinking ability you’d easily understand there is a difference from institution to institution…an individual(s) who graduated with honors from one institution IS(ARE) BETTER EDUCATED than an individual(s) who barely squeaked by at another! simply counting degrees only tells you numbers…makes no accounting for the actual education! it isn’t rocket science for someone with the capacity to overcome their conformational bias!
2…exactly why this point was made! again your conformational bias is preventing you from understanding the point is submitted to try and ‘educate’ you that your “theory” is completely flawed in regards to determining the education level of a state! if you want a clear picture of the state of education of a state you need to gauge ALL education levels…simply counting degrees and ignoring the actual state of education of that state is beyond absurd!
3…”As for whether every major metropolitan city has an education problem, I would be interested in how you come to that conclusion”…my response is my response to your direct question to me! again your bias is at play.
4…your #4 is just a sophomoric straw man argument and only serves to give me further insight into you!
the obvious point, to anyone not suffering with ‘threat anxiety’, is someone in education is BETTER EDUCATED on the topic of education than someone with no experience in the educational field!
davesdatahut: So let me get this straight, Nadia the Academic. You come in here, inform everyone that you are "in academia" (presumably this means we should accord you great respect) and then bleat some academio-babble about 'confirmational bias' while barely asking a question that would let you know whether I or anyone else here is or isn't biased. You present no evidence, no study citations, no numbers - no nothing - to address the question asked here about why southern states lag so far behind in education. You simply hop on your high horse (hopefully avoiding the poop you have scattered about) and declare, after a couple of brief exchanges, that certain ideas are stupid, nonsensical and biased. Let's see, did I miss anything? Oh yes, I did...sophomoric and some other pretentious drivel about 'threat anxiety.'
Not exactly acquitting yourself well in the debate, Nadia the Academic.
Why don't you cite some numbers and ask me some questions to determine if I am biased or not? Like say, Dave, why do you present this thread and where do you get your numbers, and did you check out thus and such paper on this topic and do you have some grudge against the South? Perhaps, if you do that, you will not insult your intelligence or that of others who participate in this thread.
For some further elucidation on quality exchanges, see my back-and-forth with OCD, a very intelligent person with whom I often disagree, but with whom it is possible to engage in an intelligent exchange of IDEAS without resorting to the type of (i almost said sophomoric) rhetoric you have presented.
That being said, I will respond to your numbered responses:
1. I would not equate a Harvard education with that of a school of far lesser standards. But from the big picture, yes, I will stick to my guns and say a state where 35 percent of the adults have college degrees is better educated than one with 25 percent. To suggest otherwise would require one to accept the logic that a state where 10 percent of the adults have degrees is, or can be, as educated as one with 50 percent. I guess it's possible. But logic suggests otherwise, unless there is some other data or research into this.
2. I am all ears to hear more evidence of how the states with low levels of degrees are not the least educated. Go for it. I'm all ears and eyes. Show me some citations, studies et cetera, as you try to educate me. Burping out 'nah nah nah nah, confirmational bias' is not enough.
3. How did my response to number 3 show bias? I merely stated, correctly, that educational levels vary widely from one city the next. Then I went on to agree that the state of the public school systems in our nation's cities is woeful and needs great improvement. Where is my bias?
4.What insight does this give you, Nadia the Academic, who now appears to be Nadia the Psychoanalyst?
As a coda to this.....when you present for your Ph.D., or write for an academic journal (should you have found a school with low enough standards to give you a Ph.D.), you might want to avoid denigrating views counter to your own as sophomoric, nonsense or the result of stupidity. You will risk having your academic ass properly kicked from here to Timbuktu and back.
As a second coda, I generally have great respect for people in academia who I deal with on a regular basis, professionally. I gain great insight from them and they are invaluable to me in my research, In the process, however, they rarely display the approach to debate that you do.
davesdatahut: Akarich, there was no intention on my part to put down the south.
I'm raising the issue of why the South lags behind in education, which it does. The numbers are irrefutable, and it would be a great thing if that trend could finally be reversed. I have no hard evidence about the connection with religion, but I do think it has something to do with how religion, especially in poor areas, often does not promote critical thinking and higher education as much as it could. Why does it make your blood boil when someone tries to draw a connection between the two? Maybe there is no connection at all. But I toss it out there for discussion.
As for welfare collectors, there is no implication whatsoever that southerners would rather collect a welfare check than get an education and get ahead. It never crossed my mind when I started this thread. I assume most everyone would rather work than not work.
You do raise an excellent point about jobs and a lack of them in the South. It's been a problem for a long time and continues to be, although it's certainly changed for the better in some states, like North Carolina and somewhat in South Carolina. It's part of the reason why, indeed, a disproportionate number of soldiers come from the South - because they need a good job. No argument there. I'm not sure what comes first, the lack of higher education in the South or the lack of jobs. But they are both problems. And problems that need to be addressed.
For what it's worth, I know alafreakinbama doesn't represent the south. But he ain't acquitting the region well either by what he says here.
davesdatahut: Ala, I will listen to akarich a whole lot quicker than you because at least he lays out his points and has something meaningful to say.