CIA Attrocities--------------MKUltra Mind Control and other Crimes (Page 5)
Bumpa: Chronology perhaps 50000 is more than USA lost in Vietnam, but don't you count the millions of innocent citizens killed by American bombs during this conflict. I'm talking about the Laotian and Cambodian innocents. 6 years of daily bombing from B52s! Genocide on a massive scale, but I guess they don't matter, after all they're not Americans, just "gooks"
chronology: " These years were a surreal period indeed of conspiracies and decadence. WW1 was probably the greatest bloodbath in human history, if the CIA has helped prevent a repeat of that slaughter, then it was time well spent by the U.S."
What does that mean???
Delusional pro-violence speeches are scary and people like that have to be kept away from society. Which is a job for somebody.
chronology: Bumpa. '6 years of daily bombing from B52s' really? care to mention where those B52s came from? and more to the point, 'what Air Force' they belonged to? It certainly was not the USAF they never took part in none stop 'daily raids' on either Cambodia, Laos, or Vietnam. The U.S. Air Force was decidedly unwilling to commit B52s to the Vietnam conflict because the B52 could not be replaced as it was no longer in production, and most B52 crews were not trained in conventional bombing. The B52 Squadron on Guam was called on to carry out raids on Vietnam, the Squadron had reservations but carried out a number of raids. Two of the aircraft collided on their way to Vietnam because they were not familiar with the formation flying needed for the raid, others malfunctioned because the conventional bomb dropping gear they were refitted with malfunctioned.
Hanoi was also the most fortified city in the world at the time against air raids, the losses of B52s could never be sustained even with massive fighter support and suppressing fire.
As for your suggestion of 'racism' on the part of Americans advancing air raids, their position was made clear by a American negotiator involved in talks with North Vietnam, he said;
'However distasteful it was to us to apply pressure in the form of air raids we were left with no option but to apply this pressure. In 100 days of negotiations we could not come to any agreement at all with North Vietnamese negotiators, within 3 days of air attacks commencing the North Vietnamese were engaging in meaningful negotiations that allowed talks to progress and the prospect of a successful conclusion to negotiations was within sight'.
'Millions of Cambodian and Laos innocents' care to support those figure with some facts? It is a tragedy for even one person to be killed, but where do you arrive at 'millions' of people being killed? There were no hospital records, no doctors certificates, no graves, no independent observer documents to support these fantastic figures you present. Some people did sadly die, how many will always be disputed.
An American journalist in the 1960s was so concerned at the news stories he saw of Napalm being used in South Vietnam that he visited the country and made a tour of hospitals to asses the extent of civilian casualties from Napalm, he could not find a single person being treated for Napalm injuries. Without doubt 'some' people were injured by Napalm, and again this is tragic, but the sensational news stories were giving a totally mythical impression.
'Genocide' is the 'killing of Genes' commonly referred to as the racist attempt to wipe out a people. The U.S. Air Force attacks on Cambodia were initiated to destroy enemy combat camps, supply routes, supply dumps, radio facilities etc, no way can you call that 'Genocide'.
50.000 people killed in a few hours, I say again, it would have been unlikely to have happened had there been a CIA to provide the necessary information before the battle. War is always sad and often tragic, but with CIA staff providing 'Intelligent Intelligence' lives, many lives, can be saved.
"...but with CIA staff providing 'Intelligent Intelligence' lives, many lives, can be saved."...but were n't.
Its the groveling to information suppliers that is offensive and not so much the ' negative ' style of accounting for events.
It seems that in Chonos's case the mind control has failed and its the other crimes that are getting at him.
Bumpa: Chrono, I can't believe you're denying the bombing of Cambodia and Laos! I'm assuming you're American so what the hell do they teach in US schools about Vietnam?
Of course it happened and of course it was the USAF B52s.
This is all a matter of public record. I suggest you travel in these countries and witness the legacy for yourself, its a very sobering experience.
What is this bullshit you state about a lack of napalm injuries? Didn't US TV news show the footage of Viets and Cambodians being burned alive? We used to see this daily in the late 60s. Perhaps these scenes were censored in USA.
The casualty figures were supplied by the Cambodian and Laotian governments and confirmed by Red Cross.
Next I suppose you will be suggesting America was justified in becoming involved in Vietnam.
Or that incidents like Mi Lai never happened?
chronology: Bumpa. I am not saying Cambodia was not bombed. I am saying that targets in those countries were bombed for purposes of defending American and Vietnamese Forces in Vietnam from cross boarder attacks. 'Casualties were confirmed by the Red Cross', really? and how did they do that? After being shown figures supplied by hostile countries to the U.S.? I mean, (tongue firmly in cheek) they are not going to lie are they?
A little story for you Bumpa. During the great 'Pea Souper' smogs in London a Doctor who was on duty during the worst of the smogs told how he was certain the British Government were adjusting death rate numbers to hide the number of deaths. 'I know more people died than they were claiming, I spoke to Funeral Directors who agreed with me the figures that were given were far lower than those published at the time', they did this, he claimed, by moving bodies from one Parish to another to hide any 'spikes' in the number of people who died on the days of the smog. He said the Government hid the deaths of thousands of people that week by moving statistics around. It would have been just as easy for Governments in Indochina to adjust the numbers of deaths 'upwards' to blame the U.S. for a supposed surge in deaths.
Yes B52s were used, usually to bomb jungle supply routes, and usually the only people bombed were Vietcong transport personnel. The raids by B52s were usually in cooperation with US Special Ops who were sent into the jungle to observe for supply convoys, when supply convoys were uncovered B52s were called in. Another major B52 support mission was supporting the outpost at Khe Sahn.
Yes Mai Lai was tragic. But we have seen in Sandy Hook and Colorado Movie Theatres that some people 'flip'.
You seem to leave out of your Posts the courageous and self sacrificing actions of many thousands of U.S. Troops on many occasions. Typical was the Medovac Mission flown by a UH1 Pilot. He was asked to fly into a jungle location to pick up injured South Vietnamese soldiers who needed to be flown to hospital. He never had to make that flight, it was not part of his mission agenda in that district. He recalled how he was flying into a battle zone where he did not have the call signs of the Vietnamese on the ground, and could not even rely on the smoke canisters set off to mark the landing zone, but he flew in any way. He managed to get 6 or so badly injured men into his helicopter before take off. At the last moment, before lifting off he saw in front of him a NVA soldier with an AK47. The NVA guy emptied his magazine into the windows of the UH1 exploding out the windows and badly injuring the American Pilot. He managed to somehow get his chopper back to hospital to save the lives of the men he had collected, and was fortunate to survive his injuries.
Well the History of the London Smogs might have something to do with;- Topic: Science
if there was a 'spirit ' in London at that time but to compare it to a cover up of 'Carpet' bombing or 'Satuation' bombing as Americans call it is wrong unless you are saying the Americans had a financial interest in using the weapons.
(Edited by duncan124)
Bumpa: Chrono, no doubt there were many incidents involving great heroism on both sides of the war. The fact remains that USA had no justification for getting involved in the first place and in the end had their arses kicked by a bunch of peasant farmers in black silk pyjamas.
Your claim that US bombing only targeted supply routes is pure bullshit. It was directed at villages near where it was thought VC fighters operated. There was also agent orange sprayed over millions of acres of pristine jungle. The resulting birth defects can still be seen if you visit the region.
Something that can't be seen any more are the great apes of those jungles, they are now extinct due to the forest destruction.
Bumpa: Incidentally, a few years ago I had a Japanese girlfriend who expressed great surprise when she learned that our countries had once been at war.
Apparently in Japanese schools kids are taught that Japan was not involved in WW2 until USA dropped those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that similar censorship/ propaganda exists in American schools. This may help explain your woeful ignorance Chrono.
chronology: Bumpa. As you probably know Vietnam was divided into two countries, North and South, the U.S. sent troops to guarantee the right of the South to remain an independent country.
You say the U.S. targeted civilian villages not supply routes, can you explain the logic in that?
'Agent Orange', personally I disagree with the use of such tactics as they are 'scorched earth', but if you censure the U.S. for the tragic results of Agent Orange, you must take the same judgmental position at 'all' people from gardeners to farmers who used herbicides back then, people were pretty reckless when it came to using such products, consider DDT. But the fact remains more forest has been destroyed to grow Palm Oil, than by the Pentagon. It was only a few hours ago I was talking to a Guy about the look of the countryside after the strip mines have been at work, I take it you are as apposed to strip mines as to wars.
You say the U.S. was 'defeated' in Vietnam, that is debatable as they could have continued there, it was 'their' decision to leave. Before the U.S. left, they offered the North generous conditions for peace, repeatedly made these offers.
Bumpa: Chrono, what a load of bullshit. Suggest you check your history before making these statements.
Vietnam was a single country in 1950 when they tried to overthrow the French colonisers. Ho Chi Minh led the struggle for all of Vietnam. USA stepped in on the side of France as they were afraid Ho would form a democratically elected communist regime. An election was planned for 1954 which would have done this but USA attacked Ho's forces to prevent the election. Then in 1954 the country was divided along the 17th parallel with Ho ruling in the North, a very popular leader as he introduced many reforms to feed the starving peasants.
USA convinced the interim govt in Saigon to attack Ho with their help and the whole thing escalated.
The Vietnam War was started by USA for its own political reasons.
chronology: Bumpa, you seem to have the same problem with simple English as Davidk14, where did I say 'Vietnam was never a single country'? Now I continue to marvel at your use of the English language; 'democratically elected communist Government', Do we find these Governments using 'ice boilers'? or exporting 'chocolate fire guards for fires'? as they are just as unlikely. 'The Vietnam War was started by USA for it's own political purposes', really? well what were French Forces doing in Vietnam? maybe they were just smoking opium and enjoying the scenery, what were Japanese Forces doing there in WW2? maybe just checking out the nightclubs.
Vietnam had to fight three wars , with the French who surrendered half way through the war with the USA and then with Communist China.
I think Chono should stop using this thread for his violent fantasies.
Bumpa: Chrono, you didn't say Vietnam was "never a single country," you said it was 2 separate countries. Same thing but stop putting words into my mouth. Even then you were wrong. It was a single country when USA invaded to suppress fair elections.
The French? Yeah that's about what they were doing, Vietnam had been a French colony for years and the old guard were hanging on grimly, the wealthy colonists did indeed have a sweet life, smoking opium and enjoying the scenery. In addition they were helping themselves to Vietnam's oil reserves and getting wealthy.
The Japanese, pretty obvious isn't it? Vietnam, like most of Asia was invaded by the Imperial Forces, in Vietnam's case, the big prize was the oil fields.
The difference there was the Japanese kept an occupation force in Vietnam long after hostilities ceased. Ho led a war to expel both the French and the Japanese in 1950.
Neither north or south asked for US military aid. It was the French who asked. USA saw fit to involve itself in helping an illegal occupying power continue to suppress another sovereign nation.
Strange that almost all countries USA invades have extensive oil reserves isn't it?
Bumpa: Duncan, I'm not sure Chrono is having violent fantasies. More likely that he, like most Americans have a view of history through rosy specs.
He is in total denial of any wrong doing by his country so in a way, I guess that is a fantasy of sorts
chronology: Bumpa, sorry old boy, am not American. Bumpa, you cannot accept that any view of history other than your own is possibly true, 'true' just means conforming with reality. You see Vietnam as being some 'American' war, not the result of Post WW2 chaos where the usual stabilizers of Asian Politics, China and Japan are crushed and defeated, or in China's case embroiled in a destructive civil war.
The whole world at the time was mishandling herbicides, but only 'America' according to you is 'guilty' of 'not reading the instructions' on the packets, America also has a mysterious way of winning a war in your reality, it avoids enemy combatants and bombs civilians. And then we have the worlds greatest statistics collectors in the jungles of Cambodia and Laos, people who can definitely say how many people died in American air raids, no mean feat, when even the Authorities in New Orleans were not sure months after a Hurricane how many people had been killed, or just left Town.
Well it is your reality Bumpa. Am told a shocking tourist attraction in Cambodia is the huge piles of human skulls of people killed by communists after the Americans left the region.
Bumpa: Sorry Chrono, what made me think you're American is the pic of the Arizona desert on your profile and the fact that you're denying US involvement in what we've been discussing. In my experience denial seems to be a cultural trait in USA.
I am always open to correction on historical records but in the case of SE Asia the stuff I've mentioned is out there in the public domain, well known facts not requiring references. It's not just "my version of reality"
I have seen the pile of skulls you mention, victims of Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot who filled the void left by USA killing the elected leaders of the country and at first supported by US military advisors. Local people also say some victims were in fact killed by Americans. I'm not sure of the veracity of this statement but the locals sure believe it.
I've seen tv footage of the devastation left by Katrina and I can understand the difficulties accounting for everyone, you have a mobile population there, many (if not all) families having cars and able to get the hell outa town. I am a medic in NZ Search and Rescue and we had similar problems after the recent Christchurch earthquakes.
I'm not saying USA is the only one misusing herbicides but as I understand it, they are the only ones to have used one in such huge quantities as a kind of weapon in war.
At the same time the Dow corp was producing and marketing 245T in NZ which caused similar birth defects in babies here as Orange did in Asia
Yes he is. He is attracted to the mindless violence of no mind control and his long and dull posts are a violent responce.
If you think about it ' a financial interest in using the weapons ' is about the only thing to talk about.
Immense old documentry about the CIA ,55 mins, in the last few minutes the presenter sums up questions about the CIA.
Shortly after that time the CIA formented a new idea about supporting violence. It goes 'Ok we can support you in this, but we wont help you live.'
lori100: allgov---------------CIA school must name names-------
Judge Orders Defense Dept. to Release Names of Instructors and Students at School of Americas-----------In what one leading activist, Father Roy Bourgeois, called “a victory for transparency and human rights, and against government secrecy,” a federal judge last week ordered the Department of Defense to release the names of recent instructors and trainees at the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), better known by its former name, the School of the Americas. The Obama administration is expected to appeal.
Known as the Latin American Training Center when it opened at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1946, it became the School of the Americas (SOA) in 1963, but shed the name after reports emerged that soldiers trained there helped kill six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her 16-year-old daughter in El Salvador in 1989. It trains Latin American soldiers to fight left-wing insurgencies, and (at least in the past) its training manuals advocated targeting civilians, extrajudicial executions, torture, false imprisonment and extortion. Not surprisingly, many of its graduates—including such notorious figures as Gen. Efrain Rios Montt of Guatemala, Gen. Manuel Noriega of Panama and Captain Roberto D’Aubuisson of El Salvador—went on to form death squads and commit human rights abuses.
Identifying those graduates is the issue at the heart of the case decided last week. The watchdog group School of Americas Watch (SOAW), having compiled a database of SOA instructors and trainees for the period 1946 to 2003 from government records, wants to bring it up to date. The Army, however, stopped disclosing data about its students and instructors in 2004, soon after SOAW documented five cases of SOA training individuals with already-existing human rights records.
After SOAW members Theresa Cameranesi and Judith Liteky filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for documents listing SOA's instructors and students from 2005 to 2010, the Pentagon refused to release the bulk of the requested information, citing FOIA exemptions 3 (personal privacy of the instructors and students) and 6 (national security).
chronology: Lori ......... You again look at the CIA with very narrow blinkers. Anyone who knows anything about Military Operations against irregular forces will tell you they are unpleasant, very unpleasant. Orde Wingate is a British Officer who was the product of impeccable Military Collages, I do not insult his memory by saying many Palestinians had very unpleasant memories (the Palestinians who lived to remember) of being interrogated by Mr Wingate. Ask many Algerians about being interrogated by French Forces, ask any number of people around the world who fell into the hands of opposing Armies.
How MI6, CIA spend tax money on propping up drug production
With both the CIA and MI6 secretly providing 'ghost money' bribes to the Afghan political establishment, it’s likely that Afghans will increasingly support a resurgent Taliban and the drug trade will be further propped up.