A Preacher and Gay-Rights (Page 4)

Nymphetamine Ene: omg ppl it is our friends post... why fight and do some personal agenda on here? doesn t have much sense.. show some respect

Zanjan: Dave, understand the kind of law we're talking about because you can't be making laws, left right and center without knowing what you're doing.

In the civilian world, one law leads to another, leads to another all the way down the line. Mostly, they're negative restrictives, created specifically to facilitate punitive measures. You cant make laws to cover every conceivable situation of wrong-doing but they try.

Eventually, these laws pile up until citizens see them as oppressive; the law book simply becomes too heavy to lift. Additionally, since each law has an effect on the other, they eventually clash. Civil disorder is the inevitable outcome.

When making a law, you have to look down the road many generations to get a feel for all possible outcomes. That way, you won't need to create a gazillion laws to try to fix what's broken. It's a 'thou shalt do' instead of 'don't' approach. That's the difference between divine law and civilian law.

Looking at civilian gay bonding, if it just remained as that, with no family involved, it would be a simple open and shut case. When family isn't united to begin with, such a union will utterly destroy it. Once children become involved , that's a whole different ball of wax - we're talking sombody else's life here, not that of the gay couple. A child hasn't chosen.

You better know how having gay parents will affect all children throughout their life - children aren't lab rats, to be experimented on.

Zanjan: Embryonic, you made a very important observation about surrogate parenthood - that experiment went very badly, as badly as the trend on anonymous sperm doners. Both were unethical and immoral but these things still happen because too many people don't respect the law.

I recall the story (please, no names) of a lesbian couple who wanted a child by birth. They approached a famous musician to give them his sperm by AI, no strings attached. They paid him money, although I don't know if they'd had him medically screened for substance abuse (he had a history of that) They wrote up a contract to promise they wouldn't come after him for any kind of support or communication.

Now, I don't recall if it was legal at the time for the lesbian partner to adopt the child, but that would be an important law. Several months after the boy was born, I saw a followup story and here the musician was spending time with the lesbian couple, playing with his son.

Being humans, knowing we have a child somewhere, creates a connection, even without communication. The child will be aware he has a father and this creates a connection too - now there are several individuals here, playing with hearts. You can bet on serious tears.

So even if one gay person might make a good parent, one good one out of 10 thousand doesn't cut it. Laws are supposed to be made for the greater good of society, not to answer a few desires.

LilMissAlexandria: sperm donation is actually legal so it does respect the law

Zanjan: I said **anonymous** sperm donation. If it's not illegal, it should be. Even when not anonymous, there's nothing moral about sperm donation (by a third party).......then again, civil law has a very low base for morality so government agencies often ignore their own laws.

Whimsical Fairy: In general, laws are more likely to disregard the sperm donor's biological link to the child, so that he will neither have child support obligations nor rights to the child, when sperm donation happens in a clinical setting and/or under medical supervision. Absent specific legal protection, courts may order the sperm donor to pay child support or recognize his parental rights.

davesdatahut: Zanjan, I'm not sure whose post you replied to when you replied to me, but I asked you a few specific questions. They are these:
What mature adults were you referring to when talking about those who feel sorry for themselves?
What do you mean exactly when you say that gays "choose to make it impossible" to have kids?
And when you say these gay couples "complain," do you perceive their desire to have children as complaints?
Can you reply to these questions?

Zanjan: Dave, if you're asking me to name names, forget it - I'm neither a teenager or backbiter. You should know what an immature thought process is; if a 'mature' adult has any,obviously that would refer to chronological age. You know, they say there's no stupid questions. I disagree.

""choose to make it impossible" to have kids?"

Don't put words in my mouth- the 'to have kids' is your stuff" You failed biology, didn't you?

"And when you say these gay couples "complain," do you perceive their desire to have children as complaints?"

Have you not been reading, Dave? Go back and do it, ok.

Ride_On: The most important factor thats been expressed in all this bullshit posted here is that certain individuals believe that being "gay" makes a human being be of lower moral character than someone whos simply"straight".There are many beliefs on what makes a person gay....and certain people whoever they are or whatever their intelligence level maybe or religious upbringings fail to see the simple facts.I personally would have been more than happy to have been born straight however i was not.I was born attracted to people of the same sex as myself .Think about this people...if someone during the process of becoming an actual human in the womb changes from one sex to become what they are born as and sometimes the process doesnt happen for whatever reason like it should...therefore people are born with physical characteristics of both sexs.Why is it so difficult to believe that human beings may physically be born a certain sex n have the same brain processes of that sex but be born with sexual stimuli for the same sex?Do not misinterpret what im saying...im not in anyway implying that im embarrassed or ashamed because i am lesbian because i am not.I am who i am.The hardest part for most people born different than what is considered the norm is accepting ones self for who we actually are.nobody wants to be different.Many gay or lesbians end up committing suicide during their teenage yrs because of fear of rejection by family or friends or peers.So before you voice your opinions please be aware of the results always of what your saying could cause for some whatever the topic is.Im a open book as far as my opinions on things and my life always have been.But however i am not a flag flyer for whatever "the movement " is .I think that religion and state should stay seperate simply because we have so many religions in our country now and to be fair to all we cannot consider moral character anymore based solely on this.And i say that respectfully to all no matter your religion.I consider myself not the norm and im proud of who i am currently.im a conservative christian human being who happens to be a lesbian.

Zanjan: Ride On, this is not about you and your personal wishes. Most of us have a reasonably good enough background in science to know your reasoning for being gay has no biological foundation.

Hermaphrodites aren't gay - they have a birth defect. Medically, one gender is always predominant so most parents have surgical correction done while the child is still young. They're not transgendered.

Just a tip, if you want anyone to read your posts carefully, use paragraphs. It's just a courtesy.

"nobody wants to be different"

Looks like the tattoos, nose rings and cans of purple hairspray need to explain themselves.

".Many gay or lesbians end up committing suicide during their teenage yrs because of fear......."

Anyone who commits suicide is deeply disturbed, whatever the cause - they have no intestinal fortitude and are indifferent to how others feel, particularly their own family members. Since they've refused to accept the help that's available to them, they have no right to blame others for their personal decision.

Depression isn't gay.

Gypsy_Soul: ".I think that religion and state should stay seperate simply because we have so many religions in our country now and to be fair to all we cannot consider moral character anymore based solely on this."

@ Ride_On, well said.

Try to see it this way- In order to receive the benefits of the Family Medical Leave Act, a person must have met the following qualifications:

"To be eligible for FMLA benefits, an employee must:
- work for a covered employer;
- have worked for the employer for a total of 12 months;
- have worked at least 1,250 hours over the previous 12 months; and
- work at a location in the United States or in any territory or possession of the United States where at least 50 employees are employed by the employer within 75 miles.

While the 12 months of employment need not be consecutive, employment periods prior to a break in service of seven years or more need not be counted unless the break is occasioned by the employee’s fulfillment of his or her National Guard or Reserve military obligation (as protected under the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA)), or a written agreement, including a collective bargaining agreement, exists concerning the employer’s intention to rehire the employee after the break in service."
(Department of Labor website, http://www.dol.gov)

Even disenfranchised felons can take advantage of this program if they meet the qualifications. Heterosexual couples who are only married by "common law" are also allowed these benefits. (Common Law marriage means the couple has never formally married but they've lived together for several years and as such the government considers them married.) In this respect, the government allows benefits to a marriage that is amoral under almost all religious definitions. Most people joke that common law couples are "living in sin" but if their common law heterosexual spouse falls ill, they can take time off to take care of them without losing their job or their healthcare benefits.

It is illogical and discriminatory to deny any working American citizen access to this program based on the gender of their spouse.

Zanjan: Ride On: "to be fair to all we cannot consider moral character anymore based solely on this." "

It's never been that way.

Whether people choose the moral high ground or low ground, these will never agree - yet there's a place in the middle for everyone to agree. For instance, everyone knows it's wrong to lie, deceive, cheat, steal, murder, etc. We know why - because it hurts others; this is what makes an act immoral.

Moral standards create order in society - what makes it a *religious* one is it's faithful practice. Religious Law and Civil Law have never been interchangeable, neither has been morality.

Ride_On: Gypsy i keep thinking that posting of threads like this not only pertaining to just gays or lesbians will help people in general learn acceptance of others different than themselves but the truth is certain people wouldnt be influenced even if it happened to be in regards to their own child.as far as my sentence structure and punctuation ill admit to being lazy and downright sloppy simply because it doesnt matter ..just goes to show that people will take anything they can to try n place themselves higher when they cant or dont agree with what another says or does. and i dont need correcting im very well aware of different labels pertaining to ones sexuality...perhaps you should learn to listen with an open mind which doesnt mean agreeing always or being swayed but instead of constantly attempting to correct try seeing it from different perspectives and yes thats a huge run on sentence ...like it?

davesdatahut: Zanjan, I suspected that going down this road with you would be a futile exercise - a fools errand no doubt. And indeed it is. My bad, as they say.
You appear to be unwilling or unable to answer some very direct questions about specific things you said in a post you made here. I quoted directly from it. I can only conclude that this is because answering them without blathering, meandering mumbo-jumbo would expose your views as a sinkhole of homophobia, bigotry and backward thinking cloaked in some haughty, holier-than-thou, faith-based rambling. Whether you actually are a bigot and a homophobe, I cannot say for sure. But your writings suggest only one plausible conclusion.
I would continue responding to you, but this would require effort that you do not deserve. I shall leave that to others. Logic suggests that they will reach the same dead end.
As a departing thought, I shall note that if there is a god, he or she or it must look at your kind and think "where DID i go wrong???" Or, when totally exasperated, utter in godspeak: "what the fuck?"

halfapintdoll: ^^ What he said!

halfapintdoll: I don't feel the need to rebuke Zanjan's comment regarding my family however by pointing out that it was merely an ignorant, hateful, homophobic remark I realise I have. Saves me the need to formulate a well thought out, educated, balanced and intelligent argument. When foolish people show themselves as just that all that is required is merely to point it out. Sadly there is no reasoning with idiots.

I doubt very much homophobes or religious groups were the main resource when writing the human rights legislation.. so Zanjan without exemplary and irrefutable evidence to the contrary I am calling you out as a liar.

Zanjan: Rider On: " try seeing it from different perspectives"

Seeing a thing from a different perspective doesn't mean one will agree that a thing is right/wrong. I once saw what a junkie's life was like from actually being a junkie - that didn't make me change my mind about it being wrong - I always knew it was wrong.

Zanjan: Gypsy, in my country, anyone who needed medical leave always got it - that doesn't mean they got paid for it. We were expected to buy insurance and save money for a rainy day.....we used that for such occasions. It was the same with maternity leave. We never got paid for that time off either because parents were expected to make sacrifices to be a parent - their choice to have kids.

Now, our government (Canadian) subsidizes daycare - here I am, a parent who sacrificed her career to care for her babies without any outside financial support, who went back to work and paid for a babysitter fully out of own pocket, now pays taxes for someone else to have babies. Sorry, no sympathies from me.

Until recently, medicare paid for sex change operations, covering all the psychological testing and clinics to support that. It's a wonder that was ever started.

I also paid taxes all my life for my old age pension; I'll be getting the base, while someone who has lived on charity all their lives and never worked will be getting 3 times more than me. I don't see that society as fair at all.

America is billions of dollars in debt because everybody wants handouts - there's no way its going to get out of debt as long as citizens maintain an attitude of entitlement, demanding more money from the public purse and from their employers....bad economics.

Here's how life works - when you take something for yourself, you're taking it away from somebody else. Think about what's right and wrong from a 360 degree angle.

Gypsy_Soul: Well, this post wasn't about your country, was it?

Zanjan: Tell me your country doesn't have all those things too. Ride On gets upset when you only talk about America.

Halfpintdoll, if you choose to discuss your family's sexual life on an open board, why on earth wouldn't you expect someone to comment? If you want privacy, wouldn't it be better just to keep that to yourself, ensuring no comments will happen?

“so Zanjan without exemplary and irrefutable evidence to the contrary I am calling you out as a liar.”

Your ignorance of the truth doesn’t matter to me, but God’s gonna get you for falsely accusing me.

Illuminatist: Yeah, and God being absolute compassion/Love, God is gonna "get" you something really really nice........ What do you want for christmas?

davesdatahut: Let us take note of the ignorance/arrogance of those who would foist their religion on the rest of us.
But first....run for your lives....god's gonna GIT us!!

Illuminatist: Religion?! Now that is funny.........


No, really...... Keep going.

This should be an entertaining night on wire for once........

Zanjan: Illuminatist: "God being absolute compassion/Love"

Yes, He loves justice so His policy is to avenge His loved ones when someone wrongs them. Not too different from civilian law - be careful not to screw with your taxes.

" What do you want for christmas?"

Nothing. I'm not Christian. But if I were, I'd realize it's not *my* birthday - it's Christ's birthday - any gifts would go to Him. FYI, He doesn't want a frying pan, ok.

Illuminatist: Lol! Well I was correct.....

Tonight has been entertaining, so far!




Awesome zanjan.

You are doing well, just keep up the pace please.....