A Preacher and Gay-Rights (Page 3)

davesdatahut: Faith-based ignorance, bigotry, blindness, delusion and homophobia notwithstanding, the issue remains one of equity and the law. The drivel about whether marriage is some kind of sanctified, god-ordained thing is, well, drivel. Distracting drivel. Crap. Fecund palaver. Or whatever stench-related description you want to apply.
The issue is whether we, in the United States, will honor the great document called the Constitution.To wit, there is NO legitimate argument under the Constitution that would allow the government to require any religion to condone or sanctify gay marriage. None. One of the great things about this country is that we allow people to pursue to whatever religion or wacky voodoo they wish to pursue, with whatever club rules they want to write into their rulebook.
BUT IT MAY NOT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF ANYONE. Not ANYone.
Therefore, no government can authorize a law preventing two gay men or two lesbian women from getting married in a civil ceremony AND enjoying the same legal, non-religious marriage rights as two straight people. End of discussion. That's the whole enchilada.
You want to have a discussion about god, the "creator" and whether he or she or it is either ok with same-sex marriage or finds gays and lesbians to be disgusting lowlifes? Go ahead. Have at it. It's a nice theoretical discussion, although one I find to be an utter waste of time because the question is not answerable.
But it does not change the matter of equity UNDER THE LAW. And if we are to be a society of laws that treat law-abiding, consenting adults equally and fairly, there is no other answer. Gay marriage must be allowed.

Zanjan: "Therefore, no government can authorize a law preventing two gay men or two lesbian women from getting married in a civil ceremony AND enjoying the same legal, non-religious marriage rights as two straight people"

Where were you the last 400 years? I think they did that. So why are you guys yelling to each other? Shouldn't you be addressing your lawmakers? Seriously.

Oh, you say you have a crappy political system? How dysfunctional is that when government doesn't listen to you? Umm.....maybe...this is just a suggestion... maybe you could CHANGE the system?

Is that too hard? Yes, it must be the lot of slaves in an egalitarian country where 'freedom is just another word for....nothing left to lose.' (Janis Joplin... was irresistible).

Ride_On: zanjan reminding me of a gay man who chats here im not mentioning his name and his huge mouth and pushy boisterous rude manner in which he addresses people .....he lives to create controversy.She is addressing everyone on this thread as though they are American...which they are not

Ride_On: After rereading zanjans posts ..all i hafta say is why not post under ur nic we all know you by instead of hiding behind a fake profile?
Because id like to kno how you kno i split with my longtime partner since i didn state that heredamn really you people never cease to amaze me and the sickest thing of all is when one has such disdain for another country or is it possibly just the fact you have nothing in your life that you enjoy ..your life sucks so bad that coming on wire not to have discussions which interest one and even if opinions are different we maybe come away with a diffirent n more open way of looking at things whomever we r....but to come on post things which are both rude and actually even directed towards indiviuals in a negative manner.So grow balls n post under your own nic n stop showing ur disdain for americans.Just as we dont get to chose who we have as parents we are born whatever nationailty we r also.Everyone should be proud of their heritage and ancestory .even if you cliam to be greek n you are actually just a canadian just as all white folks on this grand continent or our forefathers came from somewhere

Nymphetamine Ene: i really don t get why you all pissed of on zajnan or whatever is his/her/its name.... persone is having some good points, maybe some of them are on wrong way presented.... and a lil bit to much attidute... but no reason to attack someones opinion. i didn t read every single thing on this threat, but it is public, everyone can say what they think.....and we all can be really cool ppl and acctually think and observe and absorb other opinions, or just like brainless sheeps walking away conviced we are individualy right. one huge sociologist, herbert spencer wrote really amazing theories, in which he says, society is like one huge organisam, every part of society (we are all parts, everyone of us) is like organ, organs are made from cells, minor parts, and when one lil minor part of organ is not working, whole organisam is not working properlly... thats same with society,
what we live today is chaos, and it will be chaos...coz what we all lost it is sense for something human in us. everyone of us is thinking only on his own ass, lets be honest, when you all close this thread how many of you acctually think about gays and their rights? i certanlie belive, maybe two....
and then again when i say rights, to have fammily and to have child is not human right, it is possibility and chance. even if you are heterosexual fammily, and can t have child, and maybe don t have all conditions to adopt, no one cares. coz having a child is not right. it is not determined in human rights, it is not determined by law, it is chance and personal choice, it is possibility some of us have, some of us don t. deal with it....

halfapintdoll: The family is the fundamental and natural unit of society and requires the full protection of the state. Human rights law upholds the positive right of all peoples to marry and found a family. It upholds the ideal of equal and consenting marriage and tries to guard against abuses which undermine these principles. It is not prescriptive as to the types of families and marriages that are acceptable, recognising tacitly that there are many different forms of social arrangements around the world.

The family unit can be made vulnerable to social, economic, and political pressures. Human rights law seeks to bolster the family unit by specifying state obligations to keep families together and to reunify them when they have become separated e.g. as a result of refugee crises. It insists on maternity rights for mothers to allow time and space for the bond to develop between mother and child. It also prescribes detailed standards for the treatment of children who lack parental care and require state intervention and the provision of foster care or adoption.

source: http://www.hrea.org
(Human Rights Education Associates)

Actually to have a family is a fundamental human right, irrespective of sexual orientation and gender.

Zanjan: Ride On had said she wasn't going to post again on this subject. I knew she'd fail.

Ride On: "After rereading zanjans posts ..all i hafta say is why not post under ur nic we all know you by instead of hiding behind a fake profile?"

I have a double? Common, somebody spill who that is........I'd like to meet that person.

Ride On: "id like to kno how you kno i split with my longtime partner since i didn state that here"

First page of this topic, quoting you: “This child would have become a ward of the state and been shifted from foster home to foster home had it not been for myself and my ex who is also a woman.”

By the way, I’m a happily married female.

Embryonic: “how many of you acctually think about gays and their rights?”

Good point. Since they’re not starving, the only time I think about them is when they get in my face about religion. My thoughts are with those children and families who are being killed because citizens and their government don’t agree. My focus is on changing systems of governance.

Embryonic: “when i say rights, to have fammily and to have child is not human right”,

This is true. Children are a trust given to us all, yet most people think they own children. So many don’t take any training courses to learn how to be a good parent; they think it comes naturally, as it does in animals. Naturally, this explains why some parents crank out kids who age into beasts.

Halfpintdoll, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights is the only acceptable and binding document on these matters because it's global agreement of the peoples of Earth. I don’t recall it saying some of the things you’re stating.

Government can’t protect families from breaking up on their own – that problem started two generations ago and the tide hasn’t turned.

halfapintdoll: Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) (article 16)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948. As a resolution, it is not itself formally legally binding despite common assumptions to the contrary. However, it did establish important principles and values which were later elaborated in legally binding UN treaties. Moreover, a number of its provisions have become part of customary international law. Article 16 upholds family as the natural and fundamental unit in society. It establishes the right of men and women to marry and found a family; their equal rights as to the marriage, and that consent to marriage should be freely given.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1966) (article 23)
The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) elaborates the principles laid out in UDHR and is legally binding on all states who have signed and ratified its provisions. Article 23 guarantees the right to a family:
1. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
2. The right of men and women of marriageable age to marry and to found a family shall be recognized.
3. No marriage shall be entered into without the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
4. States Parties to the present Covenant shall take appropriate steps to ensure equality of rights and responsibilities of spouses as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. In the case of dissolution, provision shall be made for the necessary protection of any children

Declaration on Social and Legal Principles relating to the Protection and Welfare of Children, with special reference to Foster Placement and Adoption Nationally and Internationally (1986)
This document provides important guidelines for the fostering and adoption, including inter-country adoptions of children who lack appropriate parental care.

Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages (1962)
This treaty reiterates the right to full consent and also requires states to establish a minimum age for marriage.

The family is recognised as the most natural and fundamental unit of society and therefore the right of all to marry and found a family is protected in human rights law. Human rights law does not dictate the types of family unit that are deemed acceptable and in the world today there are many diverse forms of families and marriages.

Whether these rights apply to same-sex couples has become a matter of discussion in recent times. Although human rights law does not make explicit reference to this, a number of its provisions concerning the right to marry and have a family, right to equality and non-discrimination etc. can be interpreted to mean that gay and lesbian couples should enjoy the protection of human rights law.

Clearly your recollection is flawed here is some reading material for you

Nymphetamine Ene: Gay, lesbian and bisexual people have higher risks than heterosexual people of mental disorder, substance misuse and dependence, suicide, suicidal ideation and DSH.

halfapintdoll: Possibly because of the stress faced due to discrimination?

davesdatahut: Ene, see halfapint's post for a nice succinct explanation of a key reason why gays and lesbians have higher INCIDENCES of mental problems. If you were shit on by society day after day, you might go off the deep end now then, too.

Nymphetamine Ene: well one part is enviroment, then also we don t know forsure is or is not being LBG kind of disorder, it is verry senstive topic.... so maybe combination of both. like we know what determine us as persone is who we are plus enviroment... but can t blame society for all... also you can not change society, and sometimes ppl just don t wanna think on small thing like LBG problems, when they have personals issues or thinking about stuffs like global economy. lets be honest, is our priority LGB rights or our lifes? i as B dob t give a fuck about LGB rights...as i can talk about it, but i wont move my ass and do something...as most of you wont either.

Nymphetamine Ene: dave see, some of us don t care what other ppl talk.... coz we have major issues then omg someone is talking i m lesbo.... seriously, is not that important.. if i ever on end, end up in somekind marriage with girl who i love and blah blah and wanna have child, i will have it and forsure i wont ask no one is that my right, can i and etc.... but also i would put in that childs life father figure, and blah blah.........

halfapintdoll: You do make a good point Ene, for the people this doesn't affect, it's not usually that important. They have their own issues to deal with. I disagree that LGBT rights is a small problem, what bothers me is the basis for arguments against LGBT equality. A lot of the arguments against equal rights are not based in any discernible fact, most are based on misinformation and ingrained prejudice.

Nymphetamine Ene: maybe halfa.... but you aren t gay or bi... so you don t acctually kniw from first hand is it that hard or not... i m telling you from first hand if you act normal, and not pointing out i m gay i want my rights you are more accepted in society.... i never hided i m bi, and never had problems, also never pared on gay prides... which just provokes society the way it is.. for some things to change it takes ages..... how long it took till women get right to vote? how long it took for black ppl get rights in usa? it is way it is.. we have to live in what we are born, make it best for ourselfs, or acctually do some changes on right ways and stop preaching.

halfapintdoll: I have two gay sisters, three gay cousins, a bisexual aunt. I might not be gay myself but i have seen enough first hand experience just how hard it is.

I believe in equality and my sexual orientation is irrelevant to that. My argument is that no matter what your gender or sexual identity, if you are a legally consenting adult, you should be entitled to basic human rights, such as the right to marriage and the right to family.

LilMissAlexandria: shes the token hetero

halfapintdoll: My younger sister is the same age as you. She and her girlfriend have been together for five years and are planning a civil ceremony. This is for a few reasons; a symbolic commitment of their relationship, so they are legally each other next of kin and to financially protect each other in the event of their deaths. We are lucky that in the UK 'gay marriage' is legally recognised and accepted.

Since the age of 18 my sister has worked in children's homes. She has had extensive experience of children in the state care system, children with challenging behaviour and children with physical, mental and learning disabilities. She specialises in autistic spectrum disorders.

My sister and her partner want to have children. I doubt there is a better qualified person to be a parent. Yet it will be difficult, whether they use a donor or adopt. I am more than aware of the discrimination they may face but what I do know is that any children they may have could not have better qualified or more loving, stable parents.

My older sister is also considering a civil ceremony with her girlfriend of 10 years for the same reasons as my younger sister. My older sister does not want children of her own, however she is an excellent legally recognised step parent (with legally provided parental rights given by the family court) to her girlfriend children.

I think I know enough to know what I am talking about.

LilMissAlexandria: your younger sister is my age? wow

Nymphetamine Ene: right to have fammily is really kinda sensitive too...imagine this, couple of ppl,they wanna and have right to have child, also they want child of their own, but coz of health issues they can t. what they could is surogate mother, which is also not legal in every country. so what should they do?where are their rights in that case? and is it normal to call that right or just personal choice, possibilites and desires? why is society judging surogate mothers? and possibility of having child on that way?
so we back on basics of philosophy and sociology... freedom for and against.. are we free to live whatever we wanna, way we wanna? or is this all just world created with rules and rights with no rights?

Zanjan: Halfpintdoll, my recollection of the law, unlike most people, doesn't include interpretation of it.

My religious community had humungous input in creating that Document because it was the first NGO with an office at the United Nations. So, I have lots of copies of it in my home for distribution, as we realize a large percentage of the general public hasn't read it.

Mankind is a global society today but it isn't unified at this time. Civil states have national laws and a justice system which costs the individual dearly to access and get a judgement, which is so often unfair.

Whereas, Religion has its own court, and these have always been available for anyone to use at absolutely no cost. While North American peoples have ensured separation of church and state, which of these two justice systems makes more sense to use?

Zanjan: Davesdatahut, we all have to deal with difficult people and issues everyday; we've all experienced being bullied - no one is immune - and no one gets bullied every day of their lives unless they're in a bad/broken romantic relationship. One can fix that, if they choose.

Yet mature adults don't feel sorry for themselves, thinking they're somehow special when they make life choices that cause a stir. When one walks into something, knowing it's going to be difficult, then they should accept the consequences without whining and attacking others.

Gay couples who complain how difficult it is to have kids have chosen their path; you can’t always have what you want, but you’re most certainly not going to get it if you choose to make it impossible.

Halfpintdoll: “I have two gay sisters, three gay cousins, a bisexual aunt”

Kinda looks like you’re family isn’t far from breeding themselves out of existence, eh. I suppose this wont matter if one isn’t into bringing up children.

davesdatahut: At the risk of pissing into the wind here and getting involved in a discussion likely to devolve into faith-based nuttiness, let me ask you this, Zanjan....
What mature adults are you referring to who feel sorry for themselves? Would these be people seeking the same rights under the law that the U.S. Constitution provides others?
And what do you mean exactly when you say that gays "choose to make it impossible" to have kids?

And when you say these gay couples "complain," do you perceive their desire to have children as complaints?

Nymphetamine Ene: i m fucking perfect

davesdatahut: Halfpint, it would not be beyond reason for you to tear Zanjan a new asshole for her comment about your family. Have at it.