Alcoholics Anonymous

LiptonCambell: Whats your take on AA?

Personally, I think it's bullshit. More often than not, most people are forced into it by numerous organizations(the courts, their employers. their insurance)- and what does AA contain within it?

The demand that you must be spiritual in order to properly pass.

Lets review the 12 steps;

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10.Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Did you catch all the references to God?

Again, keep in mind- most people are FORCED into AA- they are FORCED to accept the idea that there is a God, or they will go to jail, lose their job, or lose their benefits.

How is any of that consistent with a free country?

LiptonCambell: And lets be honest- the ideas in AA is cultish. In a scientific solution, there would be refinement as time went on- if your doctor told you that, to cure their cancer, they would use the same methods used in the 1930's? And yet, thats exactly what AA is- it hasn't changed in over 80 years. Science doesn't work like that- but religions do. For religions, changing something is opposing the dogma of beliefs.

This could only mean one of two things- either AA is a religion, or it works everytime, all the time.

And it's effectiveness, according to AA's own studies into itself? More than a 1/3 of people leave after the first month- more than half of people leave after 6 months- and About 40% of the members stayed sober for less than a year

The 2006 Cochrane systematic review conducted studies between 1966 and 2005, and found "no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA" in treating alcoholism."- this was based off of 3,417 individuals

Not to mention the way AA is designed to break a person down, not unlike a cult. In order to succeed in AA, you must conceed you are powerless(Rule 2), that you must look down on yourself(rule 4, 5), that you are defective(rule 5) and beg others to forgive you for your weaknesses(rule 9, 10)- these kinds of beliefs are used by cults all over the world to brainwash people...

Aura: Well, I've never been to a meeting *knock on wood* since I've neither been forced nor felt I needed it. But from what I've seen around me, the thing that seems to be working for the people who do find it helpful is not so much the 12 steps, but the buddy or sponsor or whatever they call it, someone who has been there and is always on call so they do not relapse when they get a hard moment. And from what I can tell it's all positive those calls "You don't need it, you're stronger than this, this too shall pass, I'm here for you, I understand it's hard but drink is not the answer, talk to me we will figure it out.." That sort of thing.
So yeah, AA might be cult-ish if you look at what you wrote, but the ppl I know who attend the meetings don't seem to be particularly brainwashed into believing in god.

OCD_OCD: I think it's the fact that they have to admit that their addiction to alcohol is more powerful than themselves. Let's face it, if they were stronger than their addiction, they could stop anytime they wanted. The mentor/buddy system seems to be helpful because no one is forced to go it alone which, again, is part of the "can't do it by yourself" theme.

Sarcastic Dots: So is the point of contention the inclusion of God to overcome alcoholism or that people are forced into a program to overcome alcoholism?

If it's the former, then yes, it is absolutely reprehensible that people would be forced to turn to God to overcome an addiction.

If it's the latter, I am not against forced rehab if the individual is free to choose how they break free from the shackles of addiction. I've never had an addiction--well actually, I dunno, everything seems to be addiction nowadays--but I know the stuff that reaches out to me isn't something that would reach out to everyone. The reasons why people fall into addiction are as varied as the reason people overcome them.

OCD_OCD: http://alcoholism.about.com/od/dui/a/How-Court-Ordered-Alcoholics-Anonymous-Works.htm

"Court-Ordered Into A.A.

The way most people find themselves court-mandated to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings is by getting a drunk-driving conviction. In addition, A.A. is ordered for other alcohol-related convictions and in some domestic violence situations.
If you have been convicted of an alcohol-related offense, the court will sometimes offer you an alternative to going to jail. Because of jail overcrowding and the costs of keeping an offender incarcerated, many jurisdictions offer some kind of alternate or diversion program, such as A.A..

A.A. Not the Only Choice

Under these alternative sentencing programs, offenders are usually given several program options they can complete instead of going to jail. These include: entering a professional drug and alcohol rehabilitation facility, undergoing professional counseling or therapy, or attending A.A. or an alternative support group program.

Many offenders end up in Alcoholics Anonymous simply because it's the only option that is free and is usually the most available of the options, with meetings in virtually every city and town. But for those who object to going to A.A., the other, more expensive options are available along with secular support groups in some areas."

OCD_OCD: Looks like there are choices and that AA is not the only option.

LiptonCambell: >>>But from what I've seen around me, the thing that seems to be working for the people who do find it helpful is not so much the 12 steps, but the buddy or sponsor or whatever they call it,

I agree with you there- but while there are organizations that offer the buddy system without the religion, they aren't court mandated like it is with AA.

>>>but the ppl I know who attend the meetings don't seem to be particularly brainwashed into believing in god.

But if they make it past stage two, they MUST believe in God. For a person who already had faith in a Lord, that's not brainwashing- but for the person who doesn't have that belief, that very much could be considered as brainwashing- Either they accept God, or they fail(and go to jail/lose their jobs/lose their benefits)

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>>>So is the point of contention the inclusion of God to overcome alcoholism or that people are forced into a program to overcome alcoholism?

Both. People should not be forced to accept a religion- especially by the government.

Such is a core element to a free society.

I do agree that there is nothing wrong with forcing Alcoholics to address their addiction- its the inclusion of religion in that force that makes it unacceptable.

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>>>Looks like there are choices and that AA is not the only option.

So accept a program that requires you to join a religion, or go to jail?

Does that sound like a free country?

I do agree there are alternatives to AA that help people gain sobriety(SOS- Secular Organizations for Sobriety is a leading example)- but such programs aren't being utilized as much as AA is.

OCD_OCD: I guess they feel like believing in God if it is free because they could shell out the dollars and do it without God if they wanted. LOL

LiptonCambell: Lol it's not about the cost OCD- its about people being sent to prison because they won't co-operate with AA and accept there is a God.

OCD_OCD: From what I read about it, they do have a choice if they want. Free AA or pay for it yourself. It would seem like someone who was virulently opposed to anything that even smells of God would choose to pay for it themselves or, in the alternative, if they want to try to make a point...they can simply go to jail. They do have a choice. They can do it with or without God, in or out of prison.

Being in prison, however, doesn't necessarily cure your addiction, but it makes it damned hard.

LiptonCambell: I still feel you're missing my point though OCD....there shouldn't be any point where, if you are found guilty of a crime, you must accept God...

OCD_OCD: But no one is saying they have to accept God. They are apparently allowed alternatives to AA, although it is not free.

LiptonCambell: I just find that court-mandated religion has no place at all in a free society. It doesn't matter if there is alternatives- AA is a choice that shouldn't be there, so long as it requires its members to 'find God'

If nothing else, for some people who cannot afford rehab, its a choice between going to prison or adopting a religion- again, something government has no place in doing.

OCD_OCD: They are required to seek rehab for alcohol addiction and AA is merely one of the choices. If it were important enough for athiests to help other athiests with addictions, then maybe athiests should come up with their own form of addiction treatment and make it free.

If a need is out there and that need is great enough, someone will fill it.

Aura: Or 'mouth the party line' Really no-one can force you to believe in anything if you don't want to. And since alcoholics are practiced liars anyway (anyone who doesn't think so has never spend any real time with an alcoholic) most ashiest will just nod and go along with it. What does it hurt? It's not like they believe they will burn in hell for that sin.

LiptonCambell: I'm saying it's not governments place though coffee.

chronology: OCD. I think AA has an Agnostic Branch. When you consider how long Alcoholism has been recognised as an illness, it is surprising how little help is offered to Alcoholics in finding treatment for their illness. A real problem it seems is for Alcoholics to recognise they 'have' a problem. It would be interesting to know how many people Post on Wire when drunk. Judging by their Posts, probably very often.

ohnonotthatguy: Hello ***waiving hands up in the air.***
Anybody have AA batteries for my flashlight?

LiptonCambell: >>>Your own personal "higher power" could be Vishnu, Buddah, Micheal Jackson, Satan, your cock, a door knob or anything else that you want to make it.

Plueeease......You honestly tell me that if someone were court mandated to attend AA, and were to stand up at AA, and say that through the power of Trix cereal they were able to free themselves from their shortcomings and flaws, that anyone there would think they are taking it seriously?

Higher Power means religion- granted, it doesn't specify which religion, but clearly higher power isn't meant to mean your penis, your favourite pop star, your favourite breakfast cereal or anything of the sort....that is complete bullshit- and telling people that it can mean whatever they want will only get them sent to prison for not "co-operating"

>>>A.A. has helped many people over the years and has been proven to work IF YOU WORK IT.

The same could be said for sobriety. It only works should you work on it. With or without AA, it only works if you work on it...

>>>It is also an anonymous (alcoholics ANONYMOUS) so there is no real way that the court can prove that you did not attend your meetings

When you get assigned to AA, you have a slip you are required to fill out

>>>If you need A.A. and are willing to follow the steps, then it works. If it isnt for you, fine, but it has helped thousands of people while other programs have not. Dont knock it, someday you might need it.

I'm not knocking AA for the people it helps. I'm knocking it because;

A. It's a faith based organization. Even if you take all the religious mentioning of God out of AA, it still is an organization that hasn't changed in over 9 decades- in science, things change based on new research. AA doesn't give its internal research findings to the public, and refuses to let outside organizations do research on its effectiveness. It clearly concluded a long time ago- the "big book" cannot ever change, or adapt to better help people.

Because the Big Book is dogma.

B. AA is mandated- either by the courts, employers, or insurance companies- religion. You cannot get past this- you are REQUIRED to believe in a higher power to succeed in AA- and if you do not succeed in AA, you may lose your job, your insurance coverage, or even your freedom.

Those two reasons are why I am harping on AA- because it refuses to judge itself to see if it works- and that it is the means that people are forced into religion in a free society,

Aura: It would be fun though, to stand up there and declare Satan freed you from your shortcomings I've often wondered what kind of response you'd get if you'd answer the door on sunday morning when the Jehovah witnesses come around dressed in black with a (eyeliner) pentagram drawn on your forehead (yes I know it's a symbol of protection and nothing evil -but they don't) Doing something like that at AA seems like a level up of trolling, lol. But I'll probably don't have the heart to actually do it.