The Gay Marriage Thread

Coffrey: YouTube

Opposed to it? In favor of it? Why?

Aura: Since state and church are separate, they should be able to do so. Other than that I really don't think it's relevant to me as I am not gay. Why would I care if two men or two women do or do not marry? That is between them.
However I did read something interesting online this week concerning the thought that being gay is a choice. The people who honestly think it's about choice, could very well be bi-sexual. Since they experienced some form of attraction to the same sex but made the choice not to act on that, and since most people consider themselves normal, they figure other people can also make that choice.
Heterosexuals who have not experienced attraction to the same sex believe it is not about choice, because choice never had anything to do with them.
Okay, that sounds logical to me, and I'm willing to believe there is truth in this theory.
But that also means that both ways of thinking are right to some extent! See, if there's a group of bi-sexual people who chose to live with only heterosexual relationships, there is probably a group of bi-sexual people who chose to live with only homosexual relationships. That would mean to some, being gay really is a choice, just as to some being straight is a choice.
So my friends who yell at the top of their lungs "being gay is not a choice" should really be yelling "being gay is not a choice FOR ME" and stop indirectly shaming the bisexuals who did make the choice to identify as gay into thinking they are somehow less authentic.
Bottom line, people are wonderfully complex and all that really matters is the love you have for an other person regardless of gender or if you had a choice in the matter or not.

OCD_OCD: I believe that gay people are born gay. I also believe that some people may have been so sexually traumatized that they trust a same sex relationship over a female/male relationship. As far as bisexuality goes, I think it has reached cult status and is a way that people who are simply sexually indiscriminate have a flag to fly under. Some people don't care who or what trips their trigger as long as it gets tripped.

I am neither for or against gay marriage. If a state chooses to support gay marriage, that's fine with me. If a state doesn't, that's also fine with me.

the real slim DEEPy: i also agree that each state should hae the right to decide on this issue, since the ederal goverment has no powers over religious institutions. honestly, tho, i wold like to see even local governments to stop recognizing marriage as a legal institution altogether, and let the churches handle marriage on thei own. married people should not have spcial rights or priveledges that singles do not, so it seens to be unequal to grant rights to couples that are denied to singles.

the real slim DEEPy: the partner hospital visitation and health insurance spousal additions for gays have already been guaranteed in the health care bill, marriage as a legal institution is no longer necesarry

Sarcastic Dots: As long as religious institutions are free to refuse gay marriage (if that's what they believe), then I don't see the problem with gay marriage. I'm so apathetic towards the idea of gay marriage, as so many people are, that it amazes me why it's even an issue. If gay marriage was legalized tomorrow the would wouldn't come to an end-- it'd just be another day,

the real slim DEEPy: theres at least one gay friendly church in every major city, im fairely certain. if not, start your own church, i dont think you even have to see a lawyer or pay anything to start a church unless your worried about getting tax exempt status. start a church in your home, find a mail order ordination course, and make yourself a minister.

the real slim DEEPy: the methodists are a very large denomonation, and i hear they allow gay ministers

Comrade_: I don't believe anyone is born with a sexual preference/ any form of sexual attraction towards a member of the same sex or a member of the opposing sex. I believe that it develops on it's own as one gets older and matures etc. I don't like the "born this way" statement because I've seen it used as justification for other things. That's just my opinion and view on that.

That said, I really can't add anything further than what was already rightfully stated, which is; I'm not homosexual and I don't see how someone else's marriage will affect me/ harm others nor why I should make that decision for someone else.

Serabi: I have no problem with gay marriages. If two people love each other and want to share their lives, let it be their choice.

I believe that children are born with sexual preferences. I worked in a industry with lots of homosexual persons in. Most of them knew they were 'different' from a very young age, as early as 3 - 5. Most truly homosexual people frown upon bi-sexuality - It's black or white, there are no degrees of homosexuality. A common view, not my own, I don't know enough on bi-sexual to venture an opinion.

the real slim DEEPy: im not convinced that people are borm with fixed sexual orientations, but i thing thats its not always a choice either. it could be reinforced by teasing young peers, or a distant father, as a desire for the acceptance of males. and similar events in the lives of young lesbians, we dont really know, but in no way would any of this make it a disorder, it would have to severely impact life functiooning for it to be a disorder,

i pesonally think that its more of a fetish, maybe some are born, developed in childhood, or maybe some actually chose it later on, who knows. i think that feet and diaper fetishes are a little funny, cause i dont understand them, but i dont think badly of them, hell, we all got our own thing.

im not sure how god feels about it, but i am not about to make judgements, i am no god. im not so much of a fan of the pride parades, only cause i worry about young children asking sexual questions too early, but no matter how my opinions differ from the rest of yours, gays are , very, very human and deserve the same opportunities as everyone else.

about the psychology of it, in europe they have a disorder concerning gays that are extremely dissatisfied=, conflicted, whatever, about being gay. i believe the favored treatment is to reinforce their confidence and such, but im sure that some attempt sexual preferrence reassignment, which is very much hated in the states. freud finally concluded that homoseuality could not be cured by psychotherapy, and i am not suggesting that it need be, but if someone greatly desired to try to go straight because of say a religious conflict or to save a marriage, i say that individual should have the choice to try and improve his life in the manner he chooses, as long as it is safe and consentual. i know they have been sucessful at reassigning sexual stimuli for fetishists for many decades now, and i read the story of a man who had a terrible bdsm fetish, not that its a terrible thing, but his wife wasnt into it, and he had been wanking and imagining that in his mind for so long that he was unalbe to ejaculate without the fetish, and it was ruining his marriage, making his wife feel uncomfortable and inadequate, and he feared she would leave him and take the children.

he was conditioned to be aroused by "vanilla" sex, i believe by forcing him to watch vanilla porn and stroking himself to it. im sure it took many sessions, many hours, but eventually he regained the ability to ejaculate without the fetish, and this allowed hom to enjoy the family life he desired with his children.

it is not commonly accepted that homosequality is just another fetish, but, if it is, it could be reversed safely. i know this is a very frowned-upon issue, but i think that one deserves the freedom to choose such a thing, if he truly and freely believes that it is in his best interest, and i would ask that no one call me a gay basher or anything like that, and consider that some may find religion or family more fulfilling and important than their sexual orientation, and that sex is overrated anyway.

ive foulnd it to be very peaceful to be celebate over the past 6 years, and i have had so much time to read and learn, which would have never happened if i were in a relationship, and i am much happier now than when i was in a relationship, and i am in no hurry to get into another relaltionship. it seems that, in this part of my life, a partner would hold me back, as she did for many years without me realizing it, and maybe not everyone needs sex or a signifigant other to be happy. gay or straight, i suggest you learn as much as you can about everything you can, and if your single, dont hurry into a relationship, and when you do, find someone with a hobby,so that they wont demand all of your attention keep you from improving yourself.

personal improvement is much more fulfilling than sex, i assure you. sex is a means to an ends, and is overvalued in our society, becuase it appeals to our basic instincts, but we have so much more potential than any other animal, so i suggest putting your mind to use and expanding your span of knowledge. maybe if people didnt consider sex as so important, we, together, could learn more about reality and find inner peace in the aquisition of knowledge and our furthered understanding of reality.

Coffrey: Again, people who are straight trying to see a place where they would be gay. Jack, deep, what you have to understand is, gay guys look at another guy like you would look at a chick. It's not more complicated than that. Maybe there are are combination of factors, nurture and nature, but at the end of the day, they no more chose homosexuality than you chose heterosexuality. I don't think homosexuality is just a fetish, no more than you fucking a woman is your fetish.

Take away all the benefits for married couples or allow it for gays, but do take the religious part out of it. Make it like any contract and don't make it to where it has to be done in a church, but I don't think that's too big of an issue. Making recognizable in all 50 states should be the central focus.

OCD_OCD: Not casting aspersions, but if you are straight, Coffrey, how could you know what is inside the head of a gay person any more than Jack or Deep?

Comrade_: Coffrey, I don't considered myself born heterosexual, I was born without any sense of sexuality, and I stand by that, that no kid is born with any sense of sexuality but this develops in maturity. My first memory of anything sexual was towards a teacher I had who would dress provocatively, that was in primary school and even then I wasn't fully aware of everything, my stand is just leave it as something that develops in maturity (heterosexuality/ homosexuality) than saying it is a birth thing.
Don't know who you're addressing by 'fetish', or what that last paragraph is addressing, perhaps you were expecting a different response and setting up a counter-argument for that, idk.

Coffrey: Actually talking to gay people and realizing that they love their partners just as us straight people do, it's not just some kind of sexual fetish, And also, they didn't choose to be gay, that's too obvious though. No one chooses sexuality.

Well, Jack, what makes someone straight or gay? If a boy kisses you when you're young, do you become gay? I think it's a whole host of reasons, like I said nurture and nature, but even regardless of all of that, that's no reason to discriminate against them for any reason.

the real slim DEEPy: "just a fetish"? what, does tht suggestion offend you? whats wfong with a fetish, oral sex is a fatish, and i like that, anal sex is a fetish,, get my drift? why is it important for a certain type of sexual attraction to be more than "just" a fetish? what is the major differrnece between sodomy nd male homosexuality? that makes sodomy a fetish and male homosexuality to be more. is it lovlove, hardly, love is not to be limited to partners, in fact, it is possible to love everyone, love is not dexual desire, lust is. love is caring for another person, and we care for our relatives, children , friends, maybe even homeless people with a couple of buchs., i just fail to see why proposing that homosexuality could be a fetish is so unacceptable to you.

sorry to go on, it i very easy to see why gays would be so sensitive about any suggestion that homosexuality is evil, snce everyone has been opressing them for millinea . that much opression could leave a sore spot, but its a little too sensitive to be offended by suggesting that it might be better be defined as a fetish. i say leave gay marriage to the states,or stop government sanctioning it and let the cuurches do it without goverment approval. both are equal and both are legal. each state shouold be able to decide independently, and if your state dont allow it, elope, but you demand that it must be legalized in all 50 states? what is it to you to determine the laws of someone elses state. if another state votes against it, thats their right as csoverign state


and marriage is a concept of religion. in the united states, it is unconstitutional for the federal government to make a law which regards an institution./establishment of religion. itwould be illegal for the federal government to deny the church its right to the institution of marriage, and it would be illegal to pass any federal law regarding marriage. this means that the defense of marriage act is unconsitutional, but so would a federal mandate allowing for gay marriage. what is the deal with doma anyway, has it been challenged yet? in my opinion, its an overreach of federal power. the closest thing they could do, federally, is call it a civil union, and it wouldnt be religious anymore, cause you changed both the name and the definition. if you had kept the name as marriage and just changed the definition to include same sex couples, they its a law about religion, cuase marriage is religious. you have to change the name and definition to do it legally. just explaining what the law would allow in regards to gay marriage, and why it cant be mandated federally.

no offense, but you are like 4% of the population and you plan to change the law in all 50 states, and you get do decide that its not a fetish, and you tell the american psychiatry association what is and what is not a disorder, and declare that it is inborn, with no scienticif proof. i just dont understand why it is so important that it be referred to as an inborn sexual preferrence, and all 50 states must allow gay marriage, and anyone that disagrees is a homophobe.

i never suggested that homoseuality was wrong, i just suggested that it could come from a vairety of factors, not just inborn, and you took particular offense to being called a fetish. there is nothing wrong with a fetish, i quite enjoy having my knob polished. and i suggested such because of the lack of scientific proof that it is inborn. its quite a travesty when people believe a thing without grounds for supposing it to be true.

the real slim DEEPy: im sorry, i jut dont understand why sex is such a big fukkin deal

Coffrey: Again, homosexuality is no more a fetish than heterosexuality. I'm not offended, I'm just saying that's a mischaracterization. I think you're just expanding the definition of fetish, by your logic, vaginal intercourse is a fetish as well. I just don't see the need to lump of all of that with things that are clearly fetishes, that's all. Language breaks down at that point and then terms mean nothing, and it can be a justification for not allowing equal rights, like saying "If gays can marry, what's to stop people from marrying feet" and so on.

Anyway, back on topic. I actually like that idea, removing marriage from the state and making marriage, the religious status, and civil unions, the legal status, two different things. That way, the bigoted conservatives can keep marriage and the gays can get all the rights that straights do. Of course, people object to that because they like tradition just for tradition sake. And that is a hard pill to swallow as well.

Aura: Hmm, fetish is an object or non genitalia body part that causes habitual arousal and/or fixation. Going by that definition, neither oral nor anal sex can be considered a fetish because it defiantly involves genitalia. Those are just variants of sex.

Comrade_: "Well, Jack, what makes someone straight or gay? If a boy kisses you when you're young, do you become gay?"

-I assume you know what homosexuality entails, it goes both as an attraction and as an act. Use it interchangeably as heterosexuality and you'd see that kissings a girl don't make you a heterosexual. I'm simply stating that I dislike the phrase "born gay" or that at birth a person has a romantic attraction towards another person. Never stated it was a 'choice' in the sense that a homosexual can choose to be a heterosexual, I'm stating that as adults we have some control on ourselves and what we do as an act whilst on feelings we may not have control. A homosexual like a heterosexual has a choice to act on their feelings, at the end of the day and that choice is up to the adult individual.

"I think it's a whole host of reasons, like I said nurture and nature, but even regardless of all of that, that's no reason to discriminate against them for any reason."

-Ok, and that's your opinion/thought on the matter. Who is discriminating against them? For what I see noone is.(cept for deep dystopia, I didn't read his lengthy post as yet so I can't say what his stand on it is)

Serabi:

Deep Distopia "sorry to go on, it i very easy to see why gays would be so sensitive about any suggestion that homosexuality is evil, snce everyone has been opressing them for millinea . that much opression could leave a sore spot, but its a little too sensitive to be offended by suggesting that it might be better be defined as a fetish"

My reply to the above would be: - If being gay has had so many 'negatives', Stoning, discrimination, being arrested, gay bashing, general persecution, etc. Why do gay people still profess to be gay. It would just be so much easier to live a heterosexual life.

"All gays are promiscuous" A famous, general accusation! I know gay couples, male and female who have been together for 20/30 years. So that accusation does not always hold water.

Let them get married, marriage is a bond of love... whatever your sexual orientation.

I can ACCEPT homosexuality, I cannot UNDERSTAND it - but then, it is not my inclination/duty to.

Serabi: dys·to·pi·a

1. An imaginary place or state in which the condition of life is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror.

Very saddening and disturbing name!

Coffrey: Then that brings up another issue, Jack. Why wouldn't they act on their feelings?

Comrade_: hmm wouldn't it be the opposite? That they act on their feelings as consenting adults.

Coffrey: Yeah, but I don't see how it's relevant. It implies that maybe they shouldn't act on their feelings.

Comrade_: Where it implies that?