Is it the end of capitalism? (Page 2)

devonshane: The reason there are inequities in the world is because most people in the world live in countries that have corrupt governments and they have no property rights. Wealth gets earned through hard work and investment, not through taxation and control. Communism, Socialism, Facsism, Tribalism, Fabianism, and Social Justice or whatever the new name for collectivism is all it will do is intrude onto my property, and liberty. I don`t want elected individuals, my neighbors or anybody dictating how much hapiness I should have in my life.

slasian: But they can knock you dawn by simply turning the wind onto their favor, all they have to do is craft a policy.

One more thing, what is this talk about equities and corrupted government? Man be honest from Seven billion people only one had access to education, health centre, electricity, transport and other necessities. Only hundreds had billions while billions had not even a hundred.
Governments had got nothing with it, in fact they are arms for the capitalist.

narvik: All this crisis only makes capitalism stronger and better, It's what I thing.

narvik: And that's not the crisis of Capitalism. In Europe is by the welfare state (huge!), on the other hand, it's US goverment following the keynesian theory.

kellySa: capitalism doesn`t work. the stats say it all. It`s time we considered embracing or creating an alternative.

slasian: some body said crisis only makes capitalism, I need a little bit explanation on the statement. Just to simplify it, crisis are the symptoms of an empire's, an era's or a systems downfall.

Serabi: An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

davidk14: .

Good post serabi.

.

Comrade_: Serabi, I'm not sure if you are aware that the story is not factual, it is an urban myth sent via emails but later altered in 2009 to add the "Obama" part etc:

http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp

Edit: last part that I typed wasn't necessary.

Comrade_: One more thing on your story, though I'm not certain it is correct economics and probably made up for fun..but what would happen after all the grades came to F, don't you think that the students would take it upon themselves to improve their grades and most likely since everyone is affected that each student would pull together to improve the grading shooting to an A grade. While you say "when the reward is great the effort to succeed is great", I can also reason that when the failure affects everyone then the effort to succeed is great".

I might not support socialism and communism or capitalism, but what is the alternative? In your story the students who work less were supported by those who work more. What is happening in our capitalist society? Isn't there a similar inequality? Look around you, you have no equality regardless of who works more or less.
I don't agree that one man should work and support another lazy man, but that happens in Capitalism also. What present economic model can help this?

Serabi: I don't really care whether it is a real event or just a story. The basics are sound and very scary. Reward excellence and hard work - frown on laziness.

I often visit Snopes and Urban myths.

Comrade_: You might not care the source, but presenting it in a thread as some sought of reputable source for others is in poor taste.

Didn't you see the comment I made on the basis of the story, as to what will happen after all students get the F. Check it.

Yes, I agree with you that everyone should be rewarded for their work but even in capitalist societies this is also a problem. Maybe the problem isn't being rewarded but being rewarded fairly. Not having one man working harder than another and that lazy man getting not an equal share but actually getting more.

Znthnk: Imagine that wealth was directly proportional to work. Who would you think would object most? Who would you think they'd have most to lose to that initial premise?

Comrade_: if it was directed proportional to work then no one would object, except those who are greedy or those that can't work due to physical/mental ailments.

Znthnk: Who of those two groups take the most out of the collective work-proportional wealth?

lavendar_star: Why is it people have so much criticism for socialism which doesn't really exist in its purest form, most countries who have social democratic societies are more centre left. There are some either improving their society like Brazil which are currently re distributing their countries wealth or Scandinavian countries and Australia which in general haven't been really affected by the financial crisis like other western nations. People who demonise socialism/communism (which I neither support or condemn) but rarely criticise capitalism despite its obvious glaring faults.!!!

In the UK when the major banks collapsed i.e. failed, all the chief executives of these banks were rewarded with huge bonuses and pensions: multi millions packages and at the same time numerous people losing their jobs. Furthermore, it was the taxpayers who bailed the bank out, so they got rewarded for failure in the capitalist system!!!!!

The first bank to be bailed out was northern rock and recently it was sold off to virgin money by the bloody government who are so not for the people at a lose to the British tax payers. Despite banks still having problems these companies continue to give themselves huge wage packages and in the last ten years the wage difference between the lowest earner and the highest earner continues to widen.

I find it interesting when people in my country and other western countries complain in nationalistic overtones of jobs being outsourced overseas and people should buy British etc, But this is the consequences of global capitalism, businesses have one bottom line and that is profit hence increasing job cuts, employment of cheaper labour or outsourcing business to overseas to maximise profit.

Before anyone saying the dirty word of welfare well the jobs which were previous available for the working class are no longer there and the service industry the dominant industry in western countries is reliant on a healthy economy. The restructuring of the labour market and the international redivision of the labour market means many western countries will be experiencing high unemployment for the foreseeable future.

I have already commented a few times on a similar thread and I hate to repeat myself but I find it perplexing people refuse to seek or even consider an alternative and no not socialism or communism lol but just an alternative to capitalist system. To answer the the question of this thread it is not the end of capitalism people in power or those who are wealthy that benefit from it; will not let it die but this has been the worse time for capitalism since the 1920s.

slasian: 。
@Serabi
The real problem in capitalism is about its rewarding system, In order for one to get rich it will deprive 100 off their assets, yes you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it but is it fair to multiply it for few by subtracting from the multitude?

@ZnThink, Working hard, if what our school teachers had so adamantly told us is true, if what our beloved philosophers’ thoughts and logic was really applicable in capitalism, yes working hard would have been the only way to get reach and which is the fair way. Yet those who work hard only profits income tax and the burden of paying credits all their life. The rich did not work hard as the poor and the middle class, they just look for a smart way to bit the taxing systems like running their money through private Corporations and having a short cut through government officials, they doesn’t even work at all. Every thing is done by their experts who are middle class individuals.

Socialism doesn’t say those who work hard will pay for those who didn’t it tried to create a theory where all who work hard are equally rewarded and the urban myth by serbi is just a straw man fallacy. I believe the world can no longer go on like this and it is time to look for the alternative. David Beckham has a 100 million dollar house in Beverly hills next to Tom Cruze, he had only four kids and a wife, and he and his family spent around four months away from that house or even abroad while more than 500,000 million people on the globe live with out a proper shelter let alone a place to call home. Now did you think David Beckham had worked his ass off while those people lazily linger on the streets? No he doesn’t even work, he played football does he deserve such things while those who work as hard as the mules live like pigs? The problem of Capitalism, like I said it before is its rewarding system, few will be rewarded all the money out of majorities share.

People had never experienced socialism in its real form thanks to dictators and tyrants who stain the name of communism because they had used that term to justify their unjust regimes. The stark truth is; it’s the love of money that drives capitalism not even the love of democracy or freedom.

Serabi: Please give me a good example of socialim and where is being implemented in the world? This is not a 'confrontary' question, I would really like to learn more.

lavendar_star: @serabi other than Cuba which are currently having issues considering Castro health and Venezuela and Bolivia. I don't think socialism exist in its purest or original idealistic form anywhere to my knowledge but I may be wrong.

I know some South American governments tried to implement socialism in the past but the U.S with their Neo imperialism during the 70s and 80s put a stop to that as it conflicted with their foreign policy and their capitalist system.

Some countries have elements of socialism within their system and/ or their government like with the examples I give on my previous post. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

A significant number of countries globally; parts of Europe, South America and parts of Asia and Africa have either a centre or centre left government not exclusively of course and some centre right parties are being elected into government like what happened in Spain recently.

devonshane: Bunch of crybabies! I love my money, and property, these things make me happy. I owe the world nothing, and the world owes me nothing. Live free or die!

slasian: @ Serbi's ' 'confonrtary' ' (I could not comprehend the word though) question
Socialism had never been fully understood.

The world had tried some thing like it but never socialism. of course capitalism is dying and the vital loophole, the bridge between the poor and the rich, is getting not only to its wider state but widest in the history of capitalism along with many countries indebted up to their brim. Every day many middle class are falling down the bottom while very few made it to the top. I am not suggesting socialism is the answer to this but I know that people will no longer find it fair to be abused by the few under the veil of capitalism.

When people, they are doing it right now in many parts of the glob, finally gave up and initiate the mayhem against the current system the efflux will be a new system. Capitalism can go to hell that is not my fear, my fear is before it goes it might take us first. That’s why our economists are expected to terminate the old system in which few exploit the all and they are also expected to come with a better alternates in which the hard workers are rewarded fairly while the idles can be punished fairly also. If the economist and the politicians can not open their eyes and see the desperate public, mayhem will be our fate, a mayhem which will destroy our civilization.

Americans are funny, they respect history and historians, they wrote tens of thousands history book, they make a thousand historical movie but never learn from history. The greatest sentence in history is this; HISTORY REAPETS ITS SELF. You know why, it’s because we never learn from the past. The great Roman Empire had fallen, so does the Ottomans and so does the Egypt’s pharos and so will capitalism. People had always find a way to rebel.





@Devonshane, Do you want to keep all the things you love? I bet you do and Capitalism is about to take the things you love.

P.s Money is illusion, people think that it exists but what exists for real is our agreement and if this rotten system continued like this the poor and middle class will no longer be bound to the agreement. You better start loving yourself for no one can take that away.

slasian: "Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both. Now, when I say question the whole society, it means ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together. These are the triple evils that are interrelated".
Martin Luther King Jr

We had to ask
THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS, capitalism advocates it as if… natural resources are limited but we are wasting a lot, the earth is detoriarating but we still push on, more wealth and private property.

We had to ask
THE RELATION OF WAR TO MARKETS, What the greatest capitalist nations are doing right now, governments will also be fooled by private corporations and war is one of the beloved way to wealth in capitalism.

We had to ask
CAPITALISM’S INSENSITIVITY; the rich waste billions trying to open a museum dedicated only to kettle pot, that money is robbed from the millions which are struggling to build a primary school.



Socialism as an economic system made sense: its logic is compelling. Its flaw is not economic, but rather a political. Socialism was even thought and developed as a solution to the corruption of capitalism: as a solution to the placing of profits before people.



"Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat".
Karl Marx

IN THESE DAYS REALY, WE HAVE TO QUESTION CAPITALISM MORE THAN EVER. DO WE DESRVE MEYHAM AND DESRACTION JUST TO ABOLISH THIS ECONOMICALY INSANE SYSTEM?

slasian: These are the words of one of the facilitators of the Occupy Wall St. process, David Graeber.




I was there for the occupation’s humble beginnings last Saturday, but since then it has become a sensation among the conscious and concerned population of this country. Why? Because finally there is an ongoing, unignorable, and vibrant manifestation against the Wall St. crooks who quite blatantly stole trillions of dollars from us.

Whether the occupation on Lower Manhattan lasts, or grows, or dies in the coming weeks, the global upheaval will continue and become an ever-present feature of the 21st Century. Our theory is that capitalism has entered a crisis from which it will never recover. The youth can feel it, we know we have no future within the existing system. The only question is, what alternative models can we move to, when everything feels so bleak?

davidk14: .

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance; the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill

.

slasian: and capitalism is... oh the twins. Mr David Churchill was, well you know who that guy was but who are the people shouting 24/7 on the wall street? They are your neighbors.

Why are people occupying Wall Street? Why has the occupation – despite the latest police crackdown – sent out sparks across America, within days, inspiring hundreds of people to send pizzas, money, equipment and, now, to start their own movements called OccupyChicago, OccupyFlorida, in OccupyDenver or OccupyLA?