Syria and its Crimes Against Humanity

davidk14
davidk14: Report: Syrian Siege May Be Crime Against Humanity
Published July 05, 2011
| Associated Press

BEIRUT -- Syrian security forces may have committed crimes against humanity during a deadly siege in May, Amnesty International said Wednesday, citing witness accounts of deaths in custody, torture and arbitrary detention.

The New York-based rights group called on the U.N. Security Council to refer to the situation in Syria to the International Criminal Court.

The security sweep in Talkalakh, which lasted less than a week, contributed to a growing sense of desperation over the government's brutal crackdown on protests as the nationwide uprising against President Bashar Assad's authoritarian regime gained traction.

At the time of the operation, The Associated Press interviewed residents who told of a catastrophic scene in the town of about 70,000, including sectarian killings, gunmen carrying out execution-style slayings and the stench of decomposing bodies in the streets.

Some activists have said the death toll from the May siege was as high as 36 people.

"The accounts we have heard from witnesses to events in (Talkalakh) paint a deeply disturbing picture of systematic, targeted abuses to crush dissent," said Philip Luther, Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Deputy Director.

The report issued Wednesday said the attacks "appear to be part of a widespread, as well as systematic, attack against the civilian population," which would constitute crimes against humanity.
Talkalakh is just across the border from Lebanon.

Amnesty quoted witnesses as saying Syrian forces fired on fleeing families and ambulances carrying the wounded; one witness said soldiers stabbed lit cigarettes on the backs of detainees' necks.

At least nine people died in custody, witnesses told Amnesty. Eight of them were shot at and wounded as they were ordered out of a house, and were then taken away by soldiers.

Amnesty cited interviews carried out in Lebanon and by phone with more than 50 people. The rights group, along with most foreign media, has not been allowed to enter Syria.

The 14-week uprising against Assad has proved resilient despite a deadly government crackdown that has brought international condemnation and sanctions. Assad is facing the most serious challenge to his family's four decades of rule in Syria.

Activists say security forces have killed more than 1,400 people -- most of them unarmed protesters -- since mid-March. The regime disputes the toll, blaming "armed thugs" and foreign conspirators for the unrest.

According to Amnesty, some of the family members who went to identify the bodies of their sons in Talkalakh were forced to sign a document stating that their sons were killed by armed gangs.

"Most of the crimes described in this report would fall within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court," Luther said. "But the UN Security Council must first refer the situation in Syria to the Court's Prosecutor."

WHERE IS NATO? WHERE IS OBAMA? Oh...he’s on vacation again.

.
(Edited by davidk14)
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Sables
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: For once I agree with David.
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davidk14
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chronology
chronology: The world as we know it is ending, Jack and David are on the same page
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nellie77
nellie77: Its fine to just take information from the "Associated Press" and discuss and make judgements, its human nature, but i just wanted to say that i'm an Australian citizen living in Syria, i've been here for nearly two years and what the rest of the world is being told is very untrue..
I'm not a supporter nor am i for or against a Revolution, but i strongly urge people to understand that whats happening here is beyond disbelief..
I've lived in a democratic country all my life, like it or love it there are positives and negatives..

Never in my wildest dreams did i think this country Syria which is where my ancestors come from, would come to these horrid events that have taken place the past 6 months..
One good thing about WIRE is you get to speak to people from all over the world, and one big lesson i've taken is Perception, and that is of the people..
Talk to them, ask them, ask the people that are living there, again i'm not judging the author of this post, but i just wanted to say the Media do lie and its just bloody not fair....
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chronology
chronology: Perception is indeed important.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

david says:
"WHERE IS NATO? WHERE IS OBAMA? Oh...he’s on vacation again."

Perhaps NATO and Obama are concerned, and acting with restraint by necessity because of the possibility that Iran would come to Syria's aid and then the entire Middle East would explode into a full blow regional war ...


Wait! ... Wait a minute ... ! That sounds reminiscent ... where did I hear that before?

Oh, yeah ...

david said that, only yesterday:

"Many agree with you that NATO or the UN should have come to the aid of the rebels in Syria. However, Iran would definately have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war."

Topic: Politics
(page 5 of that thread, david's first post, which is post #8 on that page, paragraph #8)



As for presidential vacations:

During 2 terms as President, Bush took spent all of part of 477 days at Camp David, on retreats and made 77 trips to his Crawford Ranch, in Texas, where he spent all or part of 490 days, on his Ranch. The total number of days of vacation or retreat President Bush took, while in office over a period of 8 years was 967 days, or 32% of his total time in office, was spent on vacations or retreats.

Source:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_vacation_days_has_George_W_Bush_taken_as_president
(amongst zillions of other references)


Prior to his current Martha's Vineyard trip, Obama had taken 10 vacations of varying lengths — spanning all or part of 61 days.

At the same point in George W. Bush's presidency, he had made 26 visits to his Texas ranch spanning all or part of 180 days.

At the same point in Bill Clinton's presidency, he had taken two vacations on Martha's Vineyard spanning 26 days and was starting a 21-day stay in Jackson Hole, Wyo.

Source:
AP
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g0Htz1nHymzIvy2596KQppti3t0A?docId=b66dcc9c60a540908cc36d4842033c49


Edit to this post:

For some reason, the link I provided to the other Wireclub thread goes to the wrong page. I'm going to correct that, and add a little text to not only direct the reader to that page, but to the post and paragraph.

(Edited by StuckInTheSixties)
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nellie77
nellie77: ^ thanks for the Politics link Sits, must say the last few pages where hilarious...
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

nellie77 says:
"Its fine to just take information from the "Associated Press" and discuss and make judgements, its human nature, but i just wanted to say that i'm an Australian citizen living in Syria, i've been here for nearly two years and what the rest of the world is being told is very untrue.."

*skeptically*

Okaaaay ........... so what's the "truth"?

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davidk14
davidk14: .


Sixties posted:
david says:
"WHERE IS NATO? WHERE IS OBAMA? Oh...he’s on vacation again."

Perhaps NATO and Obama are concerned, and acting with restraint by necessity because of the possibility that Iran would come to Syria's aid and then the entire Middle East would explode into a full blow regional war ...



Wait! ... Wait a minute ... ! That sounds reminiscent ... where did I hear that before?

Oh, yeah ...

david said that, only yesterday:

"Many agree with you that NATO or the UN should have come to the aid of the rebels in Syria. However, Iran would definately have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war."

Topic: Politics

David responds: And your point is what?



Regarding Obama’s vacations:

Bush spent his time at his home or Camp David. Obama spends his off time where? At his home is Chicago or at Camp David that have Presidential security 24/7/365?

Camp David is the Presidential retreat funded 24/7/365 by taxpayers. But no, it’s has to be Martha’s Vineyard? Twice? Probably the most expensive place to vacation in the United States? During a time where leadership is needed and goverment fiscal responsibility is being demanded by the tax payer? He doesn’t use the assets that are already being funded by US citizens? Yeah I know you’ve said you’re non-partisan but come on, you have got to admit that Martha’s Vineyard is not exactly the right place to vacation when so many Americans are unemployed and the economy is doing so poorly.


.
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chronology
chronology: 'Martha's Vineyard'? who was 'Martha' David? And what is the big attraction at her Vineyard?
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chronology
chronology: David. Seems the Island is named after a little girl buried in a grave yard in England. Americans there had their own language which they spoke with their hands as they were mostly deaf. If you ever went there I would be really careful not to make any odd hand gestures, You may get thrown in Jail for insulting comments.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

david, must I spell it out?

On one hand, in replying to that knucklehead you were debating in the other thread, you provide a very credible explanation why the UN, NATO, and presumably the US, should NOT intervene in Syria:

"Iran would definately have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war."

But the very next day, you seem to have forgotten that, and are now railing that Obama SHOULD intervene.

As for your petty complaints about where Obama vacations, Martha's Vineyard, or Camp David (Hey .... you just want him to vacation in YOUR camp!) ...

... well ... that's just petty. Silly.

But if you wanna go there, how many times did Bush spend time in Texas? Nah, don't go there. It's just silliness.

Where in Martha's Vineyard is Obama staying? Some hotel or something? In the overall costs of what it costs for the political apparatus to work for ANY president, where they vacation is a molecule in a drop in the bucket.

You're just being petty. Silly.

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spankdmonkey
spankdmonkey: Hi Nellie we all know not to listen to much to everything thats in the press .Would like to know what your truth is though

Your truth could be sitting in your house watching the local news that is sanctioned and controlled by the government .

Deffinately not having a go at you Nellie just curious to how much do you see ??

,And wouldnt it be a bit dangerous for you to be saying stuff against the government while your still in the country ??
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Sixties said: As for your petty complaints about where Obama vacations, Martha's Vineyard, or Camp David (Hey .... you just want him to vacation in YOUR camp!) ...
Where in Martha's Vineyard is Obama staying? Some hotel or something? In the overall costs of what it costs for the political apparatus to work for ANY president, where they vacation is a molecule in a drop in the bucket.


... well ... that's just petty. Silly.



David responds: Camp David is paid for. Martha’s wasn’t paid for and cost millions and millions of extra tax payer money that was absolutely not necessary besides the cost to keep Camp David secure. Obama and his family stayed on a 28 acre estate property. The Secret Service had to secure 28 acres of ocean front property as well as how many miles of open ocean? You can’t argue the point and be successful. You can try.



Sixties said: ….but the very next day, you seem to have forgotten that, and are now railing that Obama SHOULD intervene.

#1 - Perhaps NATO and Obama are concerned, and acting with restraint by necessity because of the possibility that Iran would come to Syria's aid and then the entire Middle East would explode into a full blow regional war ...

#2 - Many agree with you that NATO or the UN should have come to the aid of the rebels in Syria. However, Iran would definitely have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war

Hummm.

I said that PERHAPS in #1 not putting words in 'their' mouths.

I said MANY AGREE….WOULD DEFINITELY in #2

I am one of the ‘many agree’ and ‘would definitely’ have come to the defense of the citizens of Syria who were fighting the government. If necessary… taking on Iran. Yes, there might be consequences for such action but allowing the deaths of thousands because of being “afraid” of Iran’s response?

There was no one who would support Libya. What if Iran would have supported Libya as they do Syria...there would have been no action taken. Thousands, perhaps ten’s of thousands of Libyans would have died at the hands of the government.

Iran has crossed the line. It will depend on how far they cross over the line before they are confronted. How many more need to be slaughtered?

I just can’t wait to hear your response.

(ok David…hit POST …do it…DO IT!!!)

.
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nellie77
nellie77: Hi everyone
Whats the truth? do we really know whats really happening anywhere in this world? I am a sceptical person by nature, but what ever i say isn't going to change anything,
BUT i will say this, i teach english at a public school here in Syria,i live in Lattakia which is on the coast, i speak to my colleagues at work and friends and family, they love their president with a passion and don't want him to go, i have been part of the peaceful demonstrations, they are not allowed anymore because of the attacks that have taken place, and NOT by the army, they are rebels that have been paid from outside of syria..

Ok critics say whatever you like, i don't gain nothing by speaking the truth, i'm an atheist, i've lived in a Democratic country all my life and i don't really care if this president stays or not because this isn't my country..
There is so much going on here at times i seriously wanted to go back to Australia thinking what the hell is with this president, i read the western news and whats been said all over the globe, come here, live here and see for yourself..



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nellie77
nellie77: And spankda Monkey i'm not sure if it s dangerous, Facebook has lots of groups FOR a revolution and thats not banned here.. Lol lets see what happens!!!
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

nellie77 says:
"Whats the truth?"

The truth is, every day the television has new images of Syrian Army tanks and soldiers in the streets of it's cities, accompanied by images of unarmed civilians fleeing while carrying the dead and wounded away.
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dave3974
dave3974: there are not many images on tv here syria has kept the media out
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emolia
emolia: hey davidk why dont u say America And Its Crimes Against Humanity its better believe me especially if u add IN IRAQ
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

david says:
“Camp David is paid for. Martha’s wasn’t paid for and cost millions and millions of extra tax payer money that was absolutely not necessary besides the cost to keep Camp David secure. Obama and his family stayed on a 28 acre estate property. The Secret Service had to secure 28 acres of ocean front property as well as how many miles of open ocean? You can’t argue the point and be successful. You can try.”

I won’t argue the details of that comment. I will argue logic (or lack thereof) of it.

By that “logic,” no president should ever, for any reason, vacation anywhere other than Camp David. After all, as you point out, it’s very expensive to protect the president regardless of where he vacations, and it’s much cheaper to do so at Camp David. Therefore, if you’re going to apply that “logic” to one president, it should be applied to all. So your reasoning is that no president should ever, for any reason, vacation anywhere other than Camp David.

I repeat: That’s petty, and silly.

Since economics – the cost to taxpayers – is at the heart of your petty criticism of Obama, let’s compare that to his predecessor:

At this same point in his presidency, George W. Bush had made 26 visits to his ranch in Crawford, and had spent a total of 180 days there. (Prior to this current trip to Martha’s Vineyard, Obama has had 61 days of vacation.)

Which of those two do you think accumulated the greatest total amount of taxpayer expense during the same amount of time? I’m guessing Bush by a mile.

Since you seem to be fixated on the geography, consider that George H.W. Bush spent a fair amount of vacation time in Kennebunkport, on his oceanfront estate there. I would think that the Secret Service had to secure some similar amount of “acres of ocean front property, as well as” the same sort of “many miles of open ocean” for him … actually, much more, since Bush #1 was fond of fishing and tooling around in his speedboat.

Look, it’s just petty, and silly, to be harping on presidents for the cost of their vacations.

david says:
**********************************
Sixties said: ….but the very next day, you seem to have forgotten that, and are now railing that Obama SHOULD intervene.

#1 - Perhaps NATO and Obama are concerned, and acting with restraint by necessity because of the possibility that Iran would come to Syria's aid and then the entire Middle East would explode into a full blow regional war ...

#2 - Many agree with you that NATO or the UN should have come to the aid of the rebels in Syria. However, Iran would definitely have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war

Hummm.

I said that PERHAPS in #1 not putting words in 'their' mouths.

I said MANY AGREE….WOULD DEFINITELY in #2
**********************************

No, you got that COMPLETELY wrong. It’s ridiculous that I need to deconstruct this for you, but here goes:

#1 is ME talking, not you. It’s ME paraphrasing, and modifying slightly, YOUR words which can be found in #2.

It was a DEPICTION. It depicted ME giving an answer to your question …

“WHERE IS NATO? WHERE IS OBAMA? Oh…he’s on vacation again.”

… and suddenly realizing that the reasonable answer I was providing was actually ME inadvertently paraphrasing YOUR reasonable response to emadmass in the other thread.

It was an exercise in sarcasm. The poignant irony of that was apparently lost on you, so let me make the same point in a much more blunt way:

david says (in this thread):
“Syrian security forces may have committed crimes against humanity during a deadly siege in May, Amnesty International said Wednesday, citing witness accounts of deaths in custody, torture and arbitrary detention …” etc. etc. etc. WHERE IS NATO? WHERE IS OBAMA? Oh…he’s on vacation again.”

david says (in the other thread, with my emphasis added IN CAPS):
“Many agree with [emadmass] that NATO or the UN should have come to the aid of the rebels in Syria. However, Iran would DEFININATELY have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war.”

So … on one hand – in this thread, Obama is to be criticized for not intervening in Syria …

But on the other hand – in the other thread, you state that had NATO or the UN intervened, “Iran would definitely have come to Syria’s aid and then the entire Middle East would have exploded into a full blown regional war.”

You can’t have it both ways, david. You’ve contradicted yourself badly. I can only assume that this has occurred for the same reason as your petty criticisms of presidential vacation expense:

You have an obvious deep, visceral (and franky, creepy) hatred of the president, which manifests repeatedly throughout your posts here in Wireclub.

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davidk14
davidk14: .

Sixties said: By that “logic,” no president should ever, for any reason, vacation anywhere other than Camp David.

David responds: No other president has had an economy that has been this bad. You lead by example and you don’t go spending taxpayer’s money when it is not absolutely necessary. When times are good, nobody even mentions it but when times are bad, you absolutely must lead by example. Many Americans like me haven’t had the opportunity to have nice vacations for years because of this economy.

David continues; To be perfectly clear so that a (David don’t say it)…

The following is what I believe:

I would have come to the defense of the citizens of Syria who were fighting the government. If necessary… taking on Iran. Yes, there might be consequences for such action but allowing the deaths of thousands because of being “afraid” of Iran’s response?

There was no one who would support Libya. What if Iran would have supported Libya as they do Syria...there would have been no action taken by NATO. Thousands, perhaps ten’s of thousands of Libyans would have died at the hands of the government.

Iran has crossed the line. It will depend on how far they cross over the line before they are finally confronted. How many more need to be slaughtered?

Now, if you have a problem with that, go for it.

_____________________________________


Sixties said: You have an obvious deep, visceral (and franky, creepy) hatred of the president, which manifests repeatedly throughout your posts here in Wireclub.

David responds: More than yours and others absolute utter hatred for the last president? Are you kidding? I don’t believe I ever read that you came to Bush’s defense when they were calling him a murderer or Nazi but then, I may be wrong.

Obama said in 2008 that Bush was unpatriotic for raising the debt ceiling 5 trillion over eight years. Obama raised the ceiling 5 trillion in 2.5 years and just got another approx 2.3 trillion to get to 2013 for a grand total of 7.3 TRILLION dollars over 4+ years You don’t hear anyone calling Obama unpatriotic.

The economy is in shambles, He now wants to do this job’s thing called the Jobs Bill and asked for it to be passed immediately. It hasn’t even been drafted yet he on TV is demanding it be passed immediately. Another $500 BILLION DOLLARS to be paid by how? His job approval is lower than Bush’s at this time of his presidency. He’s now on the road in Virginia trying to sell to the public this sham of a not yet written bill.

I don’t hate the man, I absolutely do not agree with him or his administration on most if not all.

You have a problem with that...go for it.

.

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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

"I ever read that you came to Bush’s defense when they were calling him a murderer or Nazi but then, I may be wrong"

Yeah, you're wrong.

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davidk14
davidk14: Good to hear.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties:

(laughs)

I should have said:

Yeah, you're wrong.

You have a problem with that ... go for it.

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