Drug test + welfare = about darn time! (Page 3)

FogofWar
FogofWar: Yes younlee, people do choose to be addicts. Did they not CHOOSE to do the substance in the first place knowing it was addictive? Every single person is responsible for their own choice; good or bad; even addictions.


"The government is already involved in this situation though. You have to look at what options are best for society"

In doing so; we can look at the cost as being one of the most important things. How much money gets spent on welfare that ends up in drugs? You suggest rehab to give them a "hand up", and while that is better use of the money; one must consider what percentage of drug users on welfare will succeed in rehab and spend the rest of their lives drug free. I doubt even 20%. So, the amount of money saved on welfare would be wasted on failed rehab; and it would result in the same results anyways. Why don't we stop giving hand outs to people who CHOOSE to spend their money on things that they do not need to survive; and force them to help themselves since they won't do it with our help?


"It seems we are quick to vilify the poor."

How? By offering those who really do need it and are willing to sacrifice their desires in order to survive, support like welfare; while eliminating the burdens that cost them money? That is the most mind numbing idea I have heard. How much money gets spent on welfare that ends up in drugs? Think; if all that money stopped getting spent on those people; and went to those who actually need it; and are using it to survive; how much more they would be getting….please explain how this would "vilify" the poor?


"The drug problems are real and to just cut a person off any form of help if they test positive is another way of sticking your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist."

Who says they are? Just because someone who is lying about where they spend money they are given to survive; doesn't mean they are going to refuse help to those who ask for it. Seriously….think.


"No one can force an addict to quite,"

Point in case. Your argument has no grounds against your own statement.


"Not every person on welfare wants to be on welfare."

Do you really think those people are wasting their money on something as pointless as a 30 minute high and not on the food and shelter they need? Again; think.


"It isn't a case of society under hostage, more one of what is the best way to decrease the total cost of crime."

And until you can provide statistical analysis that crime rates increase when drug abusers are not paid by their governments; your argument has no validity. The best way to decrease crime would be to stop letting people freeload off the system and become functioning members of society. Those who choose to continue a life of crime can pay the consequences.

"It seems to be obvious that imposing a law that results in a person who is an addict loses welfare and ends up on the streets is not in the best interest of society."

It seems that society forking out hundreds of millions of dollars to feed that moron's addictions in order to keep him off the streets is far, far worse for society.

Think about why they are doing this; will you? Do you really think that the average druggy on welfare is going to piss hot if they know it means ending up on the streets?

This is like the bylaw passed here in Edmonton; where the police fined a person $200 for throwing a cigarette butt on the ground. Why? To send the message to the public that this sort of behaviour will NOT be tolerated. You know what happened? I can tell you smokers didn't resort to crime to pay the fines and feed their addictions….but we sure have seen a hell of a lot less cigarette butts lying around the city.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>In the US there is high unemployment rates and not everyone can get a job.

Lol and this makes them the burden of any and all contributing members of society? I just don't see the logic....I mean, sure, with charities- its your choice, your freedom. But to FORCE others- and why? Because some people cannot find jobs?

Of course, this is based on my own experiences with people on Welfare- the people who are generally on Welfare are on it because they choose not to work. I know of several people in my life who, once losing a job, wait out EI before doing ANYTHING, and only make an effort once they've already applied to Welfare. There are people I know who insist tooth-and-nail that they are incapable of working- their entire family must be on Welfare, because they get sore during work(and they don't believe in having their wife work, a wonderful reason for collecting Welfare)

Frankly, these people are leeches. And the cure is simple- remove Welfare AS A RIGHT. If, rather than Welfare being offered through Government, it is made available through charity, these people will be rooted out because, by competing for money, they must have results. With it run by government, you only ensure people stay on Welfare.

>>>I highly doubt it's the cost of welfare that has the USA in so much debt.

Ugh, took some digging, and I'm still not entirely sure if I have the correct numbers, but...;

----
According to The Budget for Fiscal Year 2008, Historical Tables, total outlays for Means Tested Entitlements in 2006 were $354.3 billion. This was 2.7% of GDP and
"Includes Medicaid, food stamps, family support assistance (AFDC), supplemental security income (SSI), child nutrition programs, refundable portions of earned income tax credits (EITC and HITC) and child tax credit, welfare contingency fund, child care entitlement to States, temporary assistance to needy families, foster care and adoption assistance, State children's health insurance and veterans pensions."
(from Table 8.1, page 133)

...

If we exclude Medicaid, health care for children and veterans pensions it is 0.89 % of GDP, or $117 billion.

...

So, for every one of your tax dollars to the Federal Government, about 7.5 cents goes to these programs. I hate to use averages, but the average taxpayer had a tax rate of 12.45% in 2005 (the latest data available here), so if we multiply things out we see that about 0.93% of the average taxpayer's income went to non-medical "welfare". So, if you made $50,000 and paid $6,225.00 in Federal income tax, approximately $465.00 went to all of these programs x-healthcare and veterans pensions.

~http://tinyurl.com/6yo74pu

>>>The drug problems are real and to just cut a person off any form of help

I get it- you're saying they should get help people quit- I'm asking why can't we do both?

>>>No one can force an addict to quit

And thats exactly my point- you cannot force an addict to quit. So saying "give them a chance to get clean" is assuming that they WANT to quit. If they don't.....well, what then?

>>>If the gov't is to introduce drug testing then the cost of testing must be made economically viable

I'm not sure I understand

>>>Society is always paying for people not to break the law or enforce the laws of the land.

Enforcing the laws and giving people money for not breaking the law are two entirely different things.

I don't receive a check to not break the law- why not?

>>>Not every person on welfare wants to be on welfare.

I don't doubt that. And frankly, the people who absolutely need to be on welfare can be supported by family or charities.

>>>Do you know of anyone who lives in a ghetto by choice?

Yes. They refuse to work.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>Many people are living just a couple of pay cheques away from the welfare line.

I think you're confusing welfare and Employment Insurance. Employment Insurance are offered to people for several months after their employment ends; Welfare happens when they don't intend to work long term.

So you can be a few pay cheques away from EI. Someone who is turning to Welfare hasn't been employed for quite some time...

>>>more one of what is the best way to decrease the total cost of crime.

Again, then why aren't I getting in on this? Would receiving tax dollars stop employed people from committing crimes? If so, why does it only work for the unemployed?

>>>It seems to be obvious that imposing a law that results in a person who is an addict loses welfare and ends up on the streets is not in the best interest of society.

Neither is allowing drug users to receive tax dollars is in the best interest of society.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>It seems that society forking out hundreds of millions of dollars

Billions fog.
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younlee
younlee: @Fog Have you ever drank alcohol??? and if so are you an alcoholic??
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IamEggman
IamEggman: All the money you think you will save by cutting programmes and welfare will only be spent on other services such as extra police, the courts, and prisons.
The drug and alcohol programmes you want rid of have a much higher success rate than the police and prisons in rehabilitating people.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Egg, where has anyone said "we should stop all forms of rehab"? We are against having people on Welfare using the money for drugs- its a self-indulgent expense
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Yes younlee, I have drank alcohol; but there is a major difference: I NEVER choose to spend money on alcohol unless I can afford to.

I don't spend my entire paycheque, that way I can afford to spend money when problems arise; example; I blew a tire on a pot hole on my way home from the base last month. The money I DIDN"T spend on booze was still in my account; hence I could afford to pay for it.

If, in some instance I did end up broke; and only had say $50 until next payday; I would spend it on food and not booze. That makes me responsible. Like I said; EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions; be they addicts or not.

If you cannot afford to live; and require government aid; then wasting that money on drugs; even recreationally; and not as an addict; is a sign that you are not an adult; and need someone to take control for you. Grow up; and you won't see the government treating you like a little kid.
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younlee
younlee: I agree with with what you say about personal responsibilty Fog, but what you said was people choose to become addicts and i dont think they do!! The first time someone has a drink they have no idea they will become an alcoholic...addiction takes over someones life.
Personal responsibility goes out the window!!! For the record i do think anyone claiming welfare of any kind she be tested for substance abuse
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: ....you think someone is not personally responsible if they piss away all their money on selfish indulgences?

I....I don't see how you could possibly believe that....
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younlee
younlee: Alcoholism is a serious physical addiction, all normal thought processes become null and void! You mustn't of seen what this addiction can do to a person...i have, and really the only thought in their mind is the next drink!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "I agree with with what you say about personal responsibilty Fog, but what you said was people choose to become addicts and i dont think they do!!"

Everyone has a choice younlee…and I have faced those same choices as everyone else. Prior to joining the army; I was a musician, singing for heavy metal bands. I also still do pen and ink art. I'm sure you have noticed the art scene; and the lifestyle that accompanies it. I smoked; I drank, I have done a few drugs in the past. I choose to do them all; and if I became dependant on any of them; it was through my own choice. I also chose not to use any of them anymore; except for the occasional drink. I don't smoke; I don't do any drugs; I don't even use medication unless I absolutely have to. I choose what I put in my body; and what I do with it. 100% MY decision.


"addiction takes over someones life."

Yes it does, but it doesn't mean they didn't let it. Ask anyone who has been to rehab; even they will tell you whose fault it was. Theirs. That's how they get over it. When you take responsibility for your own actions; you can begin to correct them. Everyone has a choice.


"Personal responsibility goes out the window!!!"

Absolutely not. You don't think I was addicted to smoking? It was my choice. It was my responsibility…and it never went out the window. It was also my choice to quit; and to turn my life around. Personal responsibility NEVER goes 'out the window', and anyone who says this lacks self discipline and respect. Every person is 100% in control of their own lives; their own actions; their own addictions. Everyone!


"You mustn't of seen what this addiction can do to a person…"

Yes, I have. I spent over 12 years in the music scene; and I have seen more people than you could imagine fall to addictions. I have seen people's lives ruined by them. I have also seen many of those people overcome and regain control of their lives. The power of the human mind is remarkable. EVERY person that lets themselves fall to an addiction; LET themselves fall to it. Every person that overcame said addiction; MADE themselves overcome it. It was all their choice; good or bad…they chose their actions.
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younlee
younlee: Ok Fog but while they were addicted were they unable to think clearly or take control!! Take personal responsibility... I cant speak for drug addiction but not one single alcoholic ever chose to be one!
Are you realy saying one day some people wake up one day and think 'you know what fw^* this recreational drinking shit, im gonna be a full blown alcoholic!!'
I really would love to live in your black and white world
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FogofWar
FogofWar: If they weren't able to take control; how would they have gotten over their addiction?

Have you met every single alcoholic?

My world isn't black and white pal…but I'm glad I don't live in your world of denial. Keep thinking it's not their fault…that'll help them get over it. While your at it; keep telling people it's not their fault they are overweight.

Every person is responsible for the decisions they make. To say otherwise is to live in denial.
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younlee
younlee: Eventually they regained control..i think they refer to it as 'a moment of clarity'...but before they do they are not in control, why is that so hard for you to grasp??
im not in denial about it...i just dont think you can lump alcoholics in with those that, say take herion for the first time, everyone knows the where that path leads...and i totally agree about fat people..
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Losing control does not mean it was not your responsibility. I've battled through depression…you want to talk about losing control? It was MY choice to get through it. It was MY choice to deal with it. It was MY action to get over it. I threw out the medication my psychiatrist prescribed…and I CHOSE to get better. It wasn't a 'moment of clarity', it was me opening my eyes to what was holding me back…ME!

By the way; depression isn't something that you can drink or inject…it happens naturally in the mind when your hormonal chemicals are not in balance….you want to take about losing control?

I'm not lumping alcoholics in wit h*^#y^ addicts that knew the risk first hand; but that doesn't mean that the alcoholic was any less responsible for his actions.

What about a serial rapist who is addicted to the rush? Is it not his fault for raping women? An addiction is an addiction; and every addict is responsible for deciding whether or not to continue down that path or get over it. I know. I have been there.
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younlee
younlee: I battle through depression everyday Fog..it will be something i have to deal with every morning for the rest of my life..so dont f^&z$yw lecture me about how it comes about!..i didnt even start taking the medication...because as you are so fond of saying 'it was my choice'..being depressed has nothing to do with any kind of physical addiction to any kind of substance so i fail to see what this has to do with what i said about alcoholics and i find it ridiculous you would use it to try and prove your point!! and you point about rapist doesn't even warrant a reply....
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FogofWar
FogofWar: It has to do with losing control…and clearly you are demonstrating your will to do just that.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: There are countless people that are addicted to rape and murder. It is a real disorder; just like alcoholism and drug addiction. Are you implying that it does not warrant the same treatment?
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Nicotina2
Nicotina2: Comparing drug addiction to rape?
OK, random DNA tests for EVERYONE!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: No, I am comparing addiction to addiction. It's ironic that someone can say it is beyond control for one person; whose addiction is seen as less 'disruptive', yet not hold that same belief for anther addiction that is seen as more offensive.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Can someone say double standard??
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Nicotina2
Nicotina2: You aren't comparing addiction to addiction.
There is a massive leap from one topic to another. That is way off topic and seems to be a case of sensationalism.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: There are people who are addicted to it. You can look it up for yourself. It's a real disorder.

On that subject; there are also people who are addicted to war. It happens. The rush of combat; the risk...it gets to some people; and it makes them become a hazard to their fellow troops.

An addiction is an addiction is an addiction...and yes; every single person is responsible for it.

I am not saying rapists are the same as alcoholics; I am saying the disorder that results in an addiction occurs in both; and to say one person is exempt from responsibility while the other is not is hypocrisy.

Yes; this would be a double standard. Whether he does it because he is addicted to the rush or not; if a man rapes a woman; he is guilty of rape; and it was his actions; and his responsibility. It is no different for any other addict. Addicts have the choice; every single day...and until you make that choice; you are going to be under the control of the substance.

FYI, depression is the same in that regard...and it too falls into the same category. It becomes an addiction.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: It has nothing to do with sensationalism...it has to do with not being in control. How does any addict gain control? By taking it. Responsibility.


Younlee; I would like to hear your position on obesity then as well....as it is often caused by addiction. Laziness and food are also both addictions.
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