The Holocaust and those who want to re-write history

davidk14
davidk14: This thread is for those that have interest in questions and answers regarding the “revisionism” movement also called Holocaust "deniers". For some of you this is a cut and paste. If you are not interested, then just close this thread and go on with your lives.

There are 44 questions and answers.

From the web-site:
www
holocaust-history.org/
denial/revisionism-qa.shtml

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ON "REVISIONISM" AND THE HOLOCAUST
This short series of questions and answers is intended as a quick introduction to a variety of topics that are often raised in respect of "revisionism" and the Holocaust. Readers are encouraged to check out the links to other articles on this web site for more complete information.

1) What is historical revisionism?

As the word implies, historical revisionism is the exercise whereby historians revise their opinions on historical events in the face of new evidence. It is an essential part of the history writing process. "Revisionism" (with quotes) is a distortion of history practiced by persons, usually inspired by antisemitism or a desire to rehabilitate the Nazis, or both. They deny that the Holocaust -- the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany -- took place. The more accurate description of "revisionists", is "deniers". They describe themselves as revisionists because they think it gives them an air of respectability.

2) What is the Holocaust?

The attempted extermination of European Jewry by Nazi Germany, resulting in at least 6 million Jews dead. In addition, another 6 million non-Jews -- Gypsies, homosexuals, prisoners of war and others -- were murdered.

3) Do "revisionists" deny the Holocaust?

Yes, although they will claim they don't. See Question 4

4. What aspects of the Holocaust do "revisionists" believe to be supported by evidence?

"Revisionists" claim to believe certain minor aspects of the Holocaust, in the hope they will appear reasonable. So, they will admit that some Jews suffered under the Nazis, and that there were some Nazi excesses, but deny an overall extermination plan. But once questioned, it becomes quickly apparent that their real position is as that they deny all of the major elements of the Holocaust: the plan to kill the Jews, mass shooting by the Einsatzgruppen, gassing at extermination camps such as Auschwitz and Treblinka, just to mention a few.
But it isn't quite that simple. There is a school of thought that holds that "revisionists" don't really believe the Holocaust didn't happen, but rather that they deny its occurrence in an attempt to foment antisemitism, rehabilitate Nazism, and/or enrich themselves.

5) Wasn't the Holocaust proven at the war crimes trials?

Yes. The Nuremberg Trials (the trial of the major war criminals 1945-46 and subsequent trials) established beyond a doubt that there had been a plan to exterminate the Jews and that the attempt was made to carry out that plan. Later trials in Germany in the 1950s and 1960s produced even more information about this.

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davidk14
davidk14: I decided not to post the rest of the questions since that might be considered spamming. So if you are interested in the remainder of the questions and answeers, you can go to:

www.
holocaust-history.org/
denial/revisionism-qa.shtml

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ƬЄЄƇЄღ
ƬЄЄƇЄღ: It has always utterly astounded me that anybody could deny the Holocaust
or any of the proven facts.. All this, coupled with the testimonials of people that actually lived through it..
Do they really think that people are that naive, gullible and stupid
enough to take what they have to say as even plausible?

edit.. addy
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Animal Lover
Animal Lover: The thing is, it is recorded in history. I hold great beliefs in the fact that, for example, sound waves go on and on and maybe another galaxy will be able to capture them and listen to what was said.
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Animal Lover
Animal Lover: Maybe a bit off the wall for here?
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davidk14
davidk14: .

You could say the same thing about the light that was emitted from that time period as well. However, yes you are right. Just a bit too far outside the box thinking....but nice try.

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Kered66
Kered66: the great many people who lived through ww2 will agree with mass killings, those of gypsy,homosexual, coloured backgrounds simply do not except that jews were the only victims. Just over half of the -estimated- 5.5million deaths were jews the rest get a little hot under the collar about the jews hijacking the story as if they were the only victims. Do not forget that the Russians lost 12.3 million lives during ww2 I don't here of the Russians claiming they were the biggest victims?
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Malobear
Malobear: Info supplied by Oracle/ThinkQuest
The Holocaust time period was from January 30, 1933 to May 8, 1945. An estimate of 5,860,000 Jewish people were killed. About 5,000,000 people who were not Jewish were also killed. There were many Jewish people murdered in many different countries. In Lithuania 143,000 were murdered, in the Netherlands 100,000 were murdered and in Romania 287,000 were murdered. All of the countries lost a lot of people which lowered their population greatly but Poland lost the most people. They lost 3,000,000 people which was ninety point nine percent of their population. The Soviet Union lost 1,100,000 people but that was thirty six point four percent of the population. These are only some of the many countries that has had there countries population decreased dramatically.

Dramatically different figures of Russians,wouldn't you say Rhondaman?

An estimate of one point five million children died during the Holocaust and about one point two million of the children were Jewish and tens of thousands were Gypsy children. Children were killed because they were prosecuted with their families for racial, political, or religious reasons. The children were separated according to their age. Children who were an infant to the age of 6 were grouped together, children ages seven to twelve were together, and teenagers thirteen to seventeen were put together. Jewish students were affected by one major law, that was the "Law Against Over crowding in German schools and universitiesÓ. Jewish children could not pass one point five percent of the total students in a school.The Nazi's were conquering what they hoped to- flushing out the young so they could not grow up to overpower them.
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Malobear
Malobear: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Rhondaman when we look at Jewish holocaust deaths section in wikipedia the figures in the above post make sense.
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Kered66
Kered66: during the siege of st petersburg alone 800,000 civilians died the figures you speak of don't add up malobear
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Malobear
Malobear: The figures of Russian Jews killed by the holocaust do. And isn't that what this thread is about?
"Poland lost the most people. They lost 3,000,000 people which was ninety point nine percent of their population. The Soviet Union lost 1,100,000 people but that was thirty six point four percent of the population."
Poland was almost wiped out.
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chronology
chronology: Yesssssssssssss good Old David. Now here is a Guy we can always rely upon to give us true objective data on events that interest him. David; 'the Holocaust is real because the Nuremberg Trials proved it'.

David, if this was not such a serious subject, I would be laughing my head off. The Nuremberg Trials are one of, if not the most disgraceful incidents in the history of Law.

Wireclubbers, this 'Nuremberg Trials David speaks of, is the same Nuremberg Trials that the U.S.S.R. sat as a Judge on, the same U.S.S.R. that had knowingly murdered 15.000 Polish Officers and Officials, then knowing brought lying witnesses to Nuremberg to claim Germany had committed the act! You just could not find anything more corrupt and vile in Legal History! and they were Judges David wants you to solemnly believe!. The actual Judges!

Some comments on Davids 'Nuremberg Trials'.

'were based upon complete disregard of sound legal, procedures, principles and precedents. The Court had no jurisdiction over the accused or their alleged crimes. It permitted the accusers to act as Prosecution, Judges, Jury and Executioners. Hens it is not surprising that these Trials degraded Jurisprudence as never before in Human Experience'. Professor Harry Elmer Barnes. PHD.

'I think the Nuremberg Trials are a Black Page in the History of the World. I think the Israeli Trial of Adolf Eichmann is in exactly the same category as Nuremberg' Edgar N Eisenhower American Attorney.

'This Kangaroo Court at Nuremberg'. U.S. Admiral D.V.Gallery

Wireclubbers, I could fill page after page with quotes describing the Moral Bankruptcy of Nuremberg, the same Nuremberg David presents as your guarantee of truth.
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Malobear
Malobear: Info by Jewish Virtual Library
Holocaust denial is rooted in the isolationism and historical revision of the WWI, post-War, WWII and Cold War periods. By the mid to late 1960s, all the ingredients of contemporary Holocaust denial were in place. Some of this background does, in fact, represent legitimate historical revision. Other parts of it, however, depart from the academic standards of historical analysis and move clearly in the direction of politically and ideologically motivated historical denial. One overarching characteristic of all deniers, the one characteristic which binds them all together, is antisemitism. Regardless of the language used to clothe their attacks upon memory and truth, it is the language of hate and fear. Regardless of pretensions of scholarship and even underlying traces of real scholarship, deniers ultimately come to rely upon the least respectable of all strategies -- stereotyping. The works of Rassinier, Barnes, Hoggan and App consistently fall back upon stereotypic images of the Jewish people which have been perpetuated for centuries and which show little sign of diminishing with the current crop of deniers.
And so there is no confusion Chrono,there was 2 trials.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_Trials
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chronology
chronology: David has said; 'we have the Testimonies of those who took part in the Holocaust'.

To understand any incident you have to follow the chain of events that led you to where you are, 'The Holocaust' does not have a single Official Document anywhere supporting any 'Final Solution'. So how did the Auschwitz become the symbol of mass murder and Genocide of Millions of alleged Jewish victims? If it was not true, how could this 'Myth of all Myths', which people like Malo and David peddle to this day? One name is the corner stone of understanding Holocaust History; 'Rudolf Hoss'.

Hoss was a Commandant at Auschwitz at the end of the War, he was captured 11th of march 1946. Before German defeat Hoss had lived a pleasant enough life, Josef Mengele had been among his friends, as had Himmler. But when the British captured him he was in a disheveled and run down condition. The 92nd Field Security Unit was given the task of getting a Statement from Hoss. When he refused to co-operate, (which was his Right under The Geneva Convention), Hoss was given 3 Royal Horse Artillery Privates as Cell Mates. They subjected him to round the clock sleep deprivation and Hoss then broke down and wrote out his confession.

What followed in the next few days virtually created The Holocaust as we know it. British Army Colonel Amen read out Hoss's Statement to the Press without checking a single fact in the Statement, or finding any supporting witnesses, or evidence. Hoss claimed to have killed 2 Million Jews, men, women and children, all had been thrown into Gas chambers. The Press reported the story in shrieking Headlines around the world. Other SS Men would later make similar statements, again, all without any supporting evidence at all.

A modern scholar who looked at Hoss'es Statement in 1986, said the statement, written on paper with a pencil was virtually gibberish, and was loaded with inaccuracies, (Hoss had been the Commandant, but buildings and places were displaced in scribbled notes). The scholar suspected not only was Hoss tortured, he was probably drugged.

When Eichmann was asked about the Hoss statement, the best English translation of Eichmann's response was; 'two and a half million? where the hell does he get numbers like that from'?

Well we will just have to weigh the facts ourselves Wireclubbers.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Chrono,

You are so full of crap, I just don't know where to start. First, I will start with, you are not only a liar and a “holocaust denier”, you seem to be a Nazi sympathizer.

You obviously did not go to the web-site I posted that has actual, verifiable information nor viewed any of the films documenting the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of other Europeans

And most of all, as Sixties has stated numerous times, you just make shit up. It’s called “lying”. Again, you have not provided any web-site sources. For dozens and dozens of posts, you never provide your sources. You just make this crap up or read it on one of your Nazi, Holocaust denying, web-sites.

You are just embarrassing yourself and further crippling your credibility and integrity, what little or if any you have left.

Soon Chronology will disappear just like John1576 did.

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Malobear
Malobear: Höss testimony translation at Nuremberg:
In the summer of 1941, I cannot remember the exact date, I was suddenly summoned to the Reichsfuhrer SS,* directly by his adjutant's office. Contrary to his usual custom, Himmler received me without his adjutant being present and said in effect:
"The Fuhrer has ordered that the Jewish question be solved once and for all and that we, the SS, are to implement that order.
The existing extermination centers in the East are not in a position to carry out the large Aktionen which are anticipated. I have therefore earmarked Auschwitz for this purpose, both because of its good position as regards communications and because the are can easily be isolated and camouflaged. At first I thought of calling in a senior SS officer for this job, but I changed my mind in order to avoid difficulties concerning the terms of reference. I have now decided to entrust this task to you. It is difficult and onerous and calls for complete devotion notwithstanding the difficulties that may arise. You will learn further details from Sturmbannfuhrer Eichmann of the Reich Security Main Office who will call on you in the immediate future.
The departments concerned will be notified by me in due course. You will treat this order as absolutely secret, even from your superiors. After you talk with Eichmann you will immediately forward to me the plans for the projected installations.
The Jews are the sworn enemies of the German people and must be eradicated. Every Jew that we can lay our hands on is to be destroyed now during the war, without exception. If we cannot now obliterate the biological basis of Jewry, the Jews will one day destroy the German people."
On receiving these grave instructions, I returned forthwith to Auschwitz, without reporting to my superior at Oranienburg.
Shortly afterwards Eichmann came to Auschwitz and disclosed to me the plans for the operations as they affected the various countries concerned. I cannot remember the exact order in which they were to take place. First was to come the eastern part of Upper Silesia and the neighboring parts of Polish territory under German rule, then, depending on the situation, simultaneously Jews from Germany and Czechoslovakia, and finally the Jews from the West: France, Belgium and Holland. He also told me the approximate number of transports that might be expected, but I can no longer remember these.
We discussed the ways and means of effecting the extermination. This could only be done by gassing, since it would have been absolutely impossible to dispose by shooting of the large numbers of people that were expected, and it would have placed too heavy a burden on the SS men who had to carry it out, especially because of the women and children among the victims.
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Malobear
Malobear: Eichmann told me about the method of killing people with exhaust gases in lorries, which had previously been used in the East. But there was no question of being able to use this for the mass transports that were due to arrive in Auschwitz. Killing with showers of carbon monoxide while bathing, as was done with mental patients in some places in the Reich, would necessitate too many buildings and it was also very doubtful whether the supply of gas which was in ready supply and which would not entail special installations for its use, and to inform me when he had done so. We inspected the area in order to choose a like spot. We decided that a peasant farmstead situated in the north-west corner of what later became the third building sector at Birkenau would be the most suitable. It was isolated and screened by woods and hedges, and it was also not far from the railway. The bodies could be placed in long, deep pits dug in the nearby meadows. We had not at that time thought of burning the corpses. We calculated that after gas-proofing the premises then available, it would be possible to kill about 800 people simultaneously with a suitable gas. These figures were borne out later in practice.
Eichmann could not then give me the starting date for the operation because everything was still in the preliminary stages and the Reichsfuhrer SS had not yet issued the necessary orders.
Eichmann returned to Berlin to report our conversation to the Reichsfuhrer SS.
A few days later I sent to the Reichsfuhrer SS by courier a detailed location plan and description of the installation. I have never received an acknowledgement or a decision on my report. Eichmann told me later that the Reichsfuhrer SS was in agreement with my proposals...


Yea Chrono,you are one sick liar.
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Malobear
Malobear: And while we are at it Chrono,you debated in a prior thread how the gassing chambers were not possible.Why dont hear from the german engineerers that designed the crematoriums:
Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt, Germany, March 5, 1946.
Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993:
Q. Who apart from you participated in the construction of the furnaces?
A. From 1941-2, I constructed the furnaces. The technical drawings were done by Mr. Keller. The ventilation systems of the "Kremas" [crematoriums] were constructed by senior engineer Karl Schultze.
Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?
A. Five times. The first time at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders of the SS Command where the Kremas were to be built. The second time in spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn 1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a Krema chimney. The forth time at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. the fifth time in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz with the intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because there were not enough workers.
Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?
A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time. I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages, which were being prepared for incineration. That was at 10 in the morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and came to the conclusion that the furnaces were working well.
Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.
Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took place the liquidation of innocent human beings?
A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.
Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?
A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers; and he installed them.
Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?
A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the furnaces was colossal.
Engineer Fritz Sander testifying on March 7 1946.
Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993:
I decided to design and build a crematorium with a higher capacity. I completed this project of a new crematorium in November 1942--a crematorium for mass incineration, and I submitted this project to a State Patent Commission in Berlin.
This "Krema" was to be built on the conveyor belt principle. That is to say, the corpses must be brought to the incineration furnaces without interruption. When the corpses are pushed into the furnaces, they fall onto a grate, and then slide into the furnace and are incinerated. The corpses serve at the same time as fuel for heating of the furnaces. This patent could not yet be approved by the Main Patent Office in Berlin, because of its classification (as a state secret).
Q. Although you knew about the mass liquidation of innocent human beings in crematoriums, you devoted yourself to designing and creating higher capacity incineration furnaces for crematoriums - and on your own initiative.
A. I was a German engineer and key member of the Topf works and I saw it as my duty to apply my specialist knowledge in this way to help Germany win the war, just as an aircraft construction engineer builds airplanes in wartime, which are also connected with the destruction of human beings.
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chronology
chronology: Good Malo, quoting some Dime Store Book you found? No references, no checkable facts, typical. Typical too is the attack mode, argumentative insulting, I expected drivel from Malo, you at least could have come out with something you may have found David.

David. Why do you not mention Babi Yar? There is no disputing Babi Yar. Why do you not mention Grochowe Forrest? I would ask you to clarify the Numbers at Grochowe killed. It is claimed 3000 Jews were killed there, 580 bodies were recovered, presumably they were killed by Nazi troops, again there is no disputing the Ukrainian Babi Yar.

David Irving the supposed Holocaust Denier actually says 'millions of Jews were killed in Eastern Europe, they were machine gunned into Mass Graves'. And where precisely are these 'Mass Graves'? As usual not one word I Posted about Hoss refuted. I know who is in 'Denial' on this Forum, and it sure ain't me.

Again, thanks to Rod for allowing Freedom of speech. Even if Malo is using that freedom to post meandering monologues.

As for the 'making crap up' allegation, have you not bothered to check those facts I gave you about how Col Amen announced the Hoss 'Statement'? Other folks on Wire will, then we see who is making 'crap up'.
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Malobear
Malobear: Testimony of Engineer Karl Schultze.
Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993:
Q. What was your personal part in these "Krema" building operation and what was Prufer's part?
A. Prufer was an expert. he designed and constructed these crematoriums and led the building operations in the concentration camps. I was responsible for the ventilation systems and for its air injection into the muffles. In specific instances, I led the installation operations personally. I personally led the installation work in Auschwitz crematoriums and gas chambers. For this purpose, I traveled to Auschwitz three times in 1943..
I did not know that in the crematoriums in Auschwitz-Birkenau innocent human beings were being liquidated. I thought criminals were being killed there who had partly been sentenced to death because of the crimes they had committed against the German army in Poland and other occupied territories. I am a German and supported and am supporting the Government in Germany and the laws of our Government. Whoever opposes our laws is an enemy of the State, because our laws establish him a such. I did not act on personal initiative but as directed by Ludwig Topf. I was afraid of losing my position and of possible arrest.
Q. Your views do not really differ from the views of a Nazi.
A. No, I was not a member of the NSDAP [National Socialist German Workers Party]. I only respected and acted according to the laws of my country.
One word for you Chrono. "SICK"
'No references, no checkable facts, typical"
You should know that answer dumb ass. JewishVirtualLibrary
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chronology
chronology: Good Old Malo. More insults, more juvenile half baked, half researched sources. I will rest my case Malo by going straight to the Jewish Library on Line and reveal to you a little secret. Are you listening carefully Malo, I am not going to waist my time on sick little hate mongering people like you. The Jewish Library says 75% of the supposed people burned in those crematoriums NEVER EXISTED, got that? they NEVER EXISTED, they were estimated figures. The people who were cremated there could easily be accounted for by natural death. Get a life, or find some one else to aim your hatred at Malo.

One more time, you are raging about people who NEVER EXISTED and that is from the Jewish on Line Library.
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Malobear
Malobear: In Canada and Western Europe, Holocaust deniers have been successfully prosecuted under racial defamation or hate crimes laws.
Chrono,Your ISP is recorded on these servers.
You keep thanking Rod,but Rod hasn't said a word in this forum. He could by Canadian law turn this information over to the country you reside in Chrono,which might not be a bad idea. As you are clearly going against the site rules and the laws of your own country (Supposedly West Europe).
Something to think about as you do what you do best,Lie and Troll.
But maybe Rod will just do everyone a favor and get rid of you and this disgusting thread.
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chronology
chronology: A brief summary of where we are in this debate.

Again, a big thank-you to Rod for permitting free speech on this subject.

David has fallen down in every argument he says proves mass gassing's took place in WW2.

David; 'we know there were Gas chambers, American Servicemen saw them'. Sorry David it has been proven Americans were mistaken by what they saw at Dachau. No American has ever seen a Homicidal Gas chamber.

David; 'The Nuremberg Trials found the Offenders guilty'. This Wireclubbers is the same Nuremberg Trials we know for a fact had Nations as Judges who had committed mass murder, then brought lying witnesses to accuses Germany of the crimes.

David; 'we have the statements of those who committed those gassing's'. We have already clearly shown that Rudolf Hoss the commandant of Auschwitz was subjected to days of sleep deprivation and would have made more sense in his statement if he said he threw the Loch Ness Monster into a gas chamber. A Scholar who examined the actual notes Hoss wrote in 1986 said the writing was little better than gibberish. And it was this single hand written statement that was never checked for proof that was used for a Press Conference that sent screaming headlines around the world. One mans statement, never checked, never supported, written by a man subject to days of sleep deprivation, used to start a world wide story. Unbelievable? not according to David.

Malo commented on the crematoriums at Auschwitz. (Wireclubbers. Are Malo and his ilk being deliberately stupid? or are they in league with me or something?
An expert on crematoriums has examined the cremation Units at Auschwitz and calculated it would take 68 year of burning with no down time at all for those cremation units to burn the numbers of people claimed killed there.

The suggestion has been made that I am anti Jewish and a Holocaust Denier. I have never in my life said one cruel thing about Jewish people, and I often recommend people here to read the Diary of Anne Frank to see how Jews were victimised in WW2 (some anti Semite hey?).

When you check these facts Wireclubbers, also note Jews had nothing at all to do with starting the stories of Homicidal Gas chambers.

Again, a big thank you to Rod for allowing free debate on this subject.

David, let's just let this matter drop hey? you are getting no where.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Wow....I couldn't even read all of this utter stupidity. Chronology; get an education.


You want evidence of the final solution? Go listen to Hitler's speeches. Read Mein Kampf. He clearly states his intent on destroying the two biggest hatreds in his life; which he realized while working construction in Vienna: Marxism; and Jews!

In fact; if I repeated the words Hitler used to describe the Jewish people in Mein Kampf; I would probably be banned.

Seriously; get an education.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "David; 'we know there were Gas chambers, American Servicemen saw them'. Sorry David it has been proven Americans were mistaken by what they saw at Dachau. No American has ever seen a Homicidal Gas chamber."

Where is your proof of this Chrono?


"David; 'The Nuremberg Trials found the Offenders guilty'. This Wireclubbers is the same Nuremberg Trials we know for a fact had Nations as Judges who had committed mass murder, then brought lying witnesses to accuses Germany of the crimes."

Surely you have evidence of this then?


"A Scholar who examined the actual notes Hoss wrote in 1986 said the writing was little better than gibberish."

What is this scholar's name? What is his profession? How credible is this one man?

"When you check these facts Wireclubbers, also note Jews had nothing at all to do with starting the stories of Homicidal Gas chambers."

Where are your facts Chrono? Anyone can post whatever they want and say it is true. Without proof; it is nothing more than allegations. In this instance; allegations that the holocaust never happened…which even Hitler himself said they did.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Oh, and Sir Isaac Newton never discovered gravity. Gravity was invented by a Norwegian in 1852 so that he could go skiing. It's true....I said so!
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