Workers rights stripped in Wisconsin. (Page 7)

davidk14: I agree with you that Americans have a real challenge ahead brought on by the transfer of their manufacturing industries to offshore countries and those jobs are never coming back to the U.S. , dollar for dollar the jobs replacing them in the service sector do not pay the wages or taxes those manufacturing jobs did.

I also agree when you said that Britain had the same problem in the 1980s, there they started borrowing money to put off the day of reckoning when reality finally hit folks over the head. This is why Americans have taken on the tough job of reducing deficits learning from history.

Yes, Americans have a head start in learning from Britain's mistakes and can see which proposed solutions do and do not work. What does work...cut spending and do not raise taxes.

You said I am a drama queen. I prefer to use the word “passionate” about my beliefs.

You mentioned to Malo that his comments about Wisconsin Teachers “were not thought out”. You said if the Teachers did what Deep said, then what they were doing was putting up a flag saying; 'hey, something is wrong here', not malingering like Jerks. At least some Americans still have loyalty to each other.

Chrono, the issue is “the teachers lied”. The health workers that wrote these “sick notes” lied. This is caught on tape and is posted on youtube. And ya want to know what? They received sick pay, taxpayer money, to not teach our children. Pretty sick if you ask me. They all should be fired for lying. Good lesson for the kids.

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Malobear: Chrono,Regardless of the unions or anything else. Those teachers clearly stepped over the line flat out lying. They are government paid public servants,just as the Police,Firemen or Rescue and once you have compromised your integrity and your honesty,the public has no use for you. If there is proof that medical personnel played along with this "Lie" than I feel the AMA should investigate whoever knownly took part,for its a insult to all in the profession of saving lives. Everyone involved should be fired,period.It is a violation of the public trust.

chronology: David, you are unbelievable, you know that? incredible. You must be the finest propagandist on the Web, or one of them. To re-cap, when the 'Guy' Mr Walker, who became The Honourable Mr Walker, came to Office, Wisconsin Finances were in good shape. Mr Walker, who then became The Honourable Mr Walker, then handed out Tax Cuts to voters which crippled the State Finances, am I right or wrong about this? The Honorable Mr Walker then did the dishonorable act of slashing the wages of Wisconsin State workers to get the State out of the debt he put it in.

I think it very commendable of you David, to show such respect for State Employees, and remind me of their legitimate titles. I trust you show the same respect for Teachers who are shaping the minds and character of Americas children, Police Officers who are representatives of Law and Order in America, and all other State workers and City workers who keeping America on the rails these days. Funny, few people here would get that impression listening to you, Mallo, Deep and Wamp. David, priorities are wrong when States hand out Tax Cuts to people who don't need them, then cut wages of people who need those wages for themselves and their families. Why it is enough to give teachers a headache and stomach cramps (good on em I say).

Mallo. The Teachers were setting a good example to anyone with a conscience. There was a Hospital in England back in the 90s which cut the wages of it's cleaning staff after privatising the cleaning services. Doctors, Nurses, and other staff walked into work the next day as if nothing had happened, even ignoring the cleaners protesting at the Hospital Gates, some of the cleaners had worked there 15 years. Wisconsin Teachers are damn fine people if you ask me.

David. You see nothing but 'Money at the Bottom Line'. David, we are not in Sinai following Moses around now my Zionist friend, we are in the 21st Century. It is not possible to run Railroads or Post Offices or Schools on simple prices. Not even the finest workers on Earth, Japan, can do that. You need Public Subsidies to do that. Do you know that the percentage of subsidies to British Railroad Companies is higher now than it was when the Railroad Lines were State owned? Few people can work out why Services like Railroads, subways, and other Utilities are often twice as expensive in England and third rate in comparison to France and Germany etc. The reason is most of the money vanishes into Private Subcontractors. Many American Businesses think this is brilliant, and want the English system for America. You want your head examining if you follow that route.

davidk14: (First...damn Chrono, use spell check will ya? Were you educated in a public school or what?)


Chrono said:

To re-cap, when thei 'Guy' Mr Walker, who became The Honourable Mr Walker, came to Office, Wisconsin Finances were in good shape.


David responds:

Well if you think inheriting a $345 million dollar deficit for 2011 is a state in good shape well then I guess you are right.

If you think because of bad decisions in 2010 under democratic leadership that the state will have a $3.4 billion dollar deficit because of decisions made by the 2010 democratic leadership means the state is in good shape well I guess you again are correct.

However, anyone with any sense of responsibility realizes that those decisions were just irresponsible. That is why they, the democrats were voted out of office. The people of Wisconsin have spoken.


Chrono rants continue:

The Honorable Mr Walker then did the dishonorable act of slashing the wages of Wisconsin State workers to get the State out of the debt he put it in.


David responds: Slashing wages? 8% is slashing wages? The pay for these state employees are still higher than the private sector so…get over it. The “Governor” is doing exactly what the citizens of Wisconsin voted him in to office to do. Follow through with his campaign pledges…reduce taxes to stimulate business and cut the outrageous spending of government. Nothing more…nothing less.


Chrono said: I trust you show the same respect for Teachers who are shaping the minds and character of Americas children,

David responds:

Let’s look at the city of Marinette in Wisconsin compared to Denmark.

Let’s look at truancy. Truancy in Marinette is 14.2 %. In Denmark it’s .2%

Let’s look at the dropout rate. In Marinette it’s 14 per 1000 students. In Denmark it’s 2 per 1000.

And the comparisons go on and on. The United States used to be in the top five in the world in educating its children in public schools. The US has dropped to 14th or 15th.

We can’t even fill all the vacancies at MIT with American children because these American public educated children can’t pass the entrance exams. We fill vacancies with you guessed it…foreign students from other countries. Good education system.

Recently many educators have admitted to fixing students scores so as to make themselves look good. Good public school system we have here with…how did you call them “Teachers who are shaping the minds and character of Americas children”.

Now I’m not saying all public school teachers are bad.

Charter and private schools in the US are doing a much better job educating and the test scores prove it. And ya know what? They are paid less. These teachers are passionate about education and not for the paycheck, and definately not for the Unions. However, you know who really hates these charter school educators? You guessed it, the unions.

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davidk14: .

Did you know that there are teachers in New York that get paid full salaries not to teach? That’s correct…paid not to teach. You see, when a teacher is suspended for any reason, they are paid full wages until their case is reviewed. Did you know that there are teachers whose cases are over a year old? They do however need to report to a facility where they sit for eight hours five days a week. Ya want to know what they do with their time, day after day, week after week, month after month? Many if not all are working other jobs. Yep, they use the time like any office adminstrator or small business owner and run their business on their computers while the tax payer pays their “full teacher salaries”. Ya want to know how this happened? During the collective bargaining negotiations, the Unions got it passed and ya want to know how? The state looked at giving the unions something so that the state could get something. There are dozens if not hundreds of teachers all across America sitting in “study hall” receiving full pay and benefits while working full time in their own businesses. Real good public schools, or should I say, Union controlled educational system...don’t you think Chrono?????

This is just one type of wasteful spending of taxpayer money that is being addressed in Wisconsin and now being looked at in dozens of other states.

Oh…did you also know when teachers are fired, the union decides who gets fired? They go by seniority. So the good new young and enegetic teachers are let go first and those that have seniority get to keep their jobs…even if they are the worst teachers in the world.

Doesn’t speak much for cutting the dead wood out of the system. But that’s the Teachers Union for you.


(I'm right in the middle of watching a DVD named "Unthinkable". It's almost over. Back in a bit)

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davidk14: (Good movie..thought provoking. Would you torture the children of the terrorist in front of him so as to give up the fourth bomb that would kill millions? He already gave up three of the bombs. You discover that there is now a fourth nuclear bomb. Well...would you torture his kids? You have only minutes to decide. The movie leaves you with the decision to make. Millions of lives are at stake.)

Outbackjack: "David responds: You’re an idiot. I could have posted a site that does not exist. Of course I expect “everyone” to go to the site to crunch the numbers. Just like the Sheriff’s “political” motivation you concluded from an admitted left leaning news agency which made conclusions from their poster boy instead of from the facts. Everyone will determine a conclusion and most likely…it will not be as you have concluded. You have a tendency to twist or not include other valid information to support your personal ideals, just like the Sheriff, instead of concluding thoughts from the facts.
So, as you have accused me, I will use your own words:
“
Go for it Outback!!!
Open every site, check every and all resource data research I post, check every word and every web-site I refer to!! THAT IS WHY I POST THEM YOU MORON FOR YOU AND OTHERS TO POST “YOUR” RESEARCH AND DATA SOURCES TO COUNTER MINE. Now, if you in the future say that you don’t have the time or don’t trust the information I post, provide research or data to prove me wrong….and just don’t say “AS A RESULT OF THIS I WILL RIGHTLY CONCLUDE THAT YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY LIED AND TREAT ALL YOUR CLAIMS?LINKS FROM NOW ON AS SUSPECT!!! That will just be an excuse for you to not face the facts and reality. That goes for you too Chrono or anyone else. "

You talk about accuracy and facts which are both an oxymoron for you when you deliberately lied about your link.

THE INFORMATION YOU PROVIDED WAS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND ON YOUR LINK.BUT YOU FAIL TO MENTION THIS AT ALL.

Lets face it David you have been deliberately caught out lying through your backteeth in a desperate attempt to justify your anti union agenda.You have repeatedly said that you provide facts and links but have proved this to be false.Lets face it.You are that used to spamming the threads with your copy and pasted rubbish that you know that not everyone has the time to try and verify your lies.I wonder how many times this has happened before.

I challenge anyone else to look up the link and see the lie for themselves.

SO UNTIL YOU RESPOND TO THIS BLATANT DISHONESTY THEN ANYTHING YOU SAY MEANS ABSOLUTELY SWEET F*@# ALL!!

Outbackjack: I have said it "seems" to be becoming a broad movement.I didnt say it was yet.When you have farmers,students,police,fireman,teachers and many more then its quite clear that this is a broad range of industries/occupations.

It may well/may not become a broad movement but the signs are encouraging.The pickets need to continue and the rage needs to be maintained.

As for teachers going on strike and this being illegal.What can I say.In a free society it should be an employees right to withdraw their labour because lets face it.Thats the only power workers have in the workplace to make change.

If I was a parent I would withdraw my children from school in protest.I have done this in Solidarity with teachers strikes before in this state when the government tried to pretend everything was business as usual.Many other parents did the same also in support of the teachers.Theres also something wrong when I,with no university experience,gets paid vastly more than the teachers who are responsible for educating our future,being our children.

Tink,just because the conditions that are being screwed out of the workers are the same as in your state doesnt make it right.These wages and conditions were fought for by our fathers and grandfathers and shouldnt be taken lightly.If this happens then we have nothing to pass onto our children.

Chrono.
You raise some valid points where governments have messed up utilities and essential services.I remember British rail in the late 80s early 90s.But are things better now I wonder?
I used to work on Mains Roads too laying roads for a private company.It cost us twice as much to make the roads as government employees.So theres a great example of saving money for the taxpayer.

Like I have said before they privatised our grain rail network here and if fell to pieces and parts of it had to be shutdown.The rest needed hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies.It worked well when it was State owned.I do however have misgivings with an all powerful government that controls and owns everything.So there does need to be a balance.All utilities I feel should be state owned i.e Power,water,roads,rail.

Another example is some of the councils around here in the bush.Our council is extremely small and therefore has little plant and equipment.It originally relied on a sharing agreement with two other neighbouring councils.For example one council had a garbage truck while another council had a loader while the other might have a truck.One of the councils sacked its workers and sold off its plant to raise money.It then brought in a private contractor(one of the councils mates in a dodgy possibly corrupt deal) which charged nearly three times as much.All the other councils had little choice but to use the private service as most of the sharing agreement got thrown out the window.

End result:
Local workers thrown on the dole while outside contractors come in and steal their jobs.Some workers leave town.Business's decline(one closed partly because of this) and my BLOODY RATES WENT UP ABOUT 30%.

So go figure that out the whole lot of you when you wax lyrical about the joys of Private Enterprise!

davidk14: Outback...you are a complete idiot.
Something just rang a bell. You said to me…SO UNTIL YOU RESPOND TO THIS BLATANT DISHONESTY THEN ANYTHING YOU SAY MEANS ABSOLUTELY SWEET F^zw ALL!!

You’ve used this type of verbiage before not only to me but to others when you got cornered and instead of providing information, you settle into very dishonest, ugly and very disturbing verbiage.

Perhaps I wasn’t “Cristal Clear”. So let me perfectly “Cristal Clear” about my past post:

You refuse to realize, as usual when the information contradicts your personal viewpoints…
This information shows that all past, present and future union members, as you yourself stated, have or will get into the top 10% of the pay scale “which determines their retirement benefits”.

It doesn’t matter what they get paid until they reach retirement age. But then you didn’t mention that now did you. Of course not.

It's not the people at the bottom or even middle of the government pay scale causing the unfunded liabilities.

It's when they retire that causes the retirement benefits expenses which is what is the problem.

A person making approximately 80k at retirement with another approximate 25k in benefits at 57 will probably live another 25 years. And if he doesn't, his survivors will.

Those retirement years of twenty five years represents pay and benefits equaling $2.6 million dollars. Pull out the old calculator and verify that number (80k x 25 years) + (25k x 25 years) = $2.6 million dollars.

The employee may have paid in 130k during his employment into his retirement account. Who do you think pays for the balance of $2.5 million dollars? The blue fairy????? NO….TAX DOLLARS DO!

NOW, PULL OUT THE CALCULATOR AGAIN. What happens when the government retiree is making 110k ($52.89 per hour) at retirement and his benefits are, let’s just say 25k? (110k x 25 years) + (25k x 25 years) = $3.38 million dollars. Who pays the $3+ million dollars? TAX DOLLARS!

Now if a simpleton like me can understand that, you certainly should.

So say what you will. You have never accepted any resource information I have ever posted because you just can't admit that you might just be wrong...pure and simple. You refuse to accept information I’ve posted from official government web-sites like the Social Security Administration, Federal Reserve, US Census, and another dozen sites such as Hamas. So what makes this any different?

So your personal attacks are typical of someone who never posts accurate information supported by sources or research. And as I said at the beginning of this post, when you smell blood in the water, you introduce into the conversation very dishonest, ugly and nasty verbiage, typical of left wing liberal fanatics. I was always hoping you had a little more integrity than those lunatics.

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Outbackjack: Thats funny.
Your link mentions nothing about this.

Also how is it that the taxpayer makes up this supposed shortfall for retirement for the autoworker?

Another falsehood by the sounds of it.You sound like you are still making this up as go regarding everything including your $50 an hour claim.

Whats up David cant sleep?
Do I keep you awake at night that much that you feel you have to jump out of bed and respond?:

http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=1&ParentId=1199912&Page=1

I find it extremely amusing that you lose sleep over me as this below post of yours proves:

"And as I said at the beginning of this post, when you smell blood in the water, you introduce into the conversation very dishonest, ugly and nasty verbiage, typical of left wing liberal fanatics. I was always hoping you had a little more integrity than those lunatics."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

But anyway David even though I find it amusing.It is a little unfair to pick on a poor confused geriatric such as yourself who is obviously very frazzled and concerned about the opinion of someone on the other side of the world.

So make yourself a nice hot cup of Cocoa.Take a bex and have a nice lie down.I would suggest counting sheep but it may make you think about a certain hobby sheep farmer in Western Australia.

In the meantime I will still be here tommorrow(unless I get hit by a sheep).I look forward to the bowling club opening in a couple of hours and having a few beers after a hot hard days work and telling all the boys how I seem to really wind up this crazed tea party nutcase from Arizona.

Cheers mate

Malobear: UAW Workers Actually Cost the Big Three Automakers $70 an Hour
The United Auto Workers (UAW) wants Congress to bail out General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler to prevent their undergoing restructuring in bankruptcy proceedings. In bankruptcy, a judge could order union contracts to be renegotiated to reflect competitive realities. Many analysts have objected that hourly autoworkers at the Big Three are some of the most highly paid workers in America, costing the Big Three over $70 an hour in wages and current and future benefits. All taxpayers should not be taxed to preserve the affluence of a few.
Some observers argue that UAW members do not actually earn this much.[1] They argue this figure includes the cost of benefits paid to current retirees as well as wages and benefits paid to current workers and that the actual hourly earnings of current UAW members are much lower. This is a mistaken interpretation of the financial data released by the Detroit automakers.
Cash Compensation
Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."
UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]
Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]
Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Malobear: Earned Benefits
The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:
Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).
These benefits cost the Detroit automakers significant amounts of money. Critics contend that these benefit figures include the cost of providing retirement and health benefits to currently retired workers, not just benefits for current workers. Since there are more retired than active employees this makes it appear that GM employees earn far more than they actually do.
This contention contradicts the plain meaning of what the automakers have reported in SEC filings and in their public statements and would be contrary to generally accepted accounting principles.
Under the accounting rules established by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, the Detroit automakers must report their liability for future benefits as they accrue.[6] The hourly benefits figure includes payments into defined benefit pension plans to provide future pensions to current workers. It also includes the estimated costs of future retirement health benefits that current workers earn today.
Chrysler, for example, reports paying $20.14 an hour in health costs for its hourly employees. That figure includes the estimated cost of their health benefits in retirement, calculated according to Financial Accounting Standard 106.[7] The government does not allow Chrysler to promise to pay tens of thousands of dollars in health benefits in the future without reporting that cost on its balance sheets today.
Excludes Legacy Costs
The hourly benefit figures the Detroit automakers report covers the cost of current and future benefits earned by actively working employees. It does not include the cost of paying health benefits and pensions to current retirees.
Before they requested a bailout, the Big Three automakers specifically explained that their labor cost figures do not include the cost of past work. General Motors states in its filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission that:
GM maintains hourly and salaried benefit plans that provide postretirement medical, dental, vision, and life insurance to most U.S. and Canadian retirees and eligible dependents. The cost of such benefits is recognized in the consolidated financial statements during the period employees provide service to GM.[8]
In other words, GM records the expense for retiree benefits when workers earn the benefits, not years later when they collect their benefits. In less technical language, Ford explains that their total average hourly labor costs include:
(1) All the dollars paid to employees, (2) the cost of contractual benefits for employees, and (3) the cost of statutory payments, such as Social Security and Workers' Compensation--all calculated on the basis of hours worked by employees.[9]

Malobear: Average hourly costs include the costs of wages and benefits (current and future) to employees divided by the number of hours worked by those same employees. It does not include the benefits paid to retirees.[10] This is in accord with standard accounting principles that require the Big Three to report their costs as they occur. labor costs are the costs to the Detroit automakers of employing its current workers, not paying former workers for services performed decades ago.
Retirement Benefits Alone Cost $31 an Hour
The argument that retiree pension and health benefits inflate the hourly labor costs of the Detroit automakers cannot withstand basic scrutiny. For instance, General Motors UAW retirement plan paid $4.9 billion to 291,000 retirees and surviving spouses in 2006.[11] That works out to $31.04 an hour when apportioned among active workers.[12] That figure accounts for virtually all GM's benefit costs--before accounting for health care costs, disability benefits, supplemental unemployment benefits, or any of the other benefits GM provides. GM pays too much in retirement benefits to have labor costs of only $70 an hour if that figure included benefits to current retirees.
labor Costs Similar Despite Retiree Differences
The Detroit automakers pay similar wages at each company despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Table 1 shows the average hourly labor costs for the Big Three and the ratio of retirees to active workers at each company. General Motors has far more retirees per active worker than Ford or Chrysler. For each active worker at GM, there were 3.8 retirees or dependants in 2006. At Chrysler this ratio was half as much: two retirees for each worker. At Ford there were only 1.6 retirees per worker. If the hourly labor costs included retiree benefits, hourly wages at GM would be much higher than at either Ford or Chrysler.
But this is not the case. General Motors did not have the highest hourly labor costs despite having more retirees. Chrysler paid $2.60 an hour more in labor costs in 2006 than GM did. Ford paid only $2.75 an hour less than GM did, despite having half as many retirees relative to workers to provide for. All three automakers had roughly the same hourly labor costs despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Hourly labor costs account for the expense of providing wages and benefits to current workers but do not include legacy costs.
Taxing the Many to Pay the Few
UAW spokespeople have roundly condemned the estimate of labor costs in excess of $70 per current worker hour. They assert these figures include the cost of current retiree pension and health benefits. They have done so, however, without marshalling evidence to support their case.
The Detroit automakers explain in their SEC filings that their benefit expenses are for current workers, not former employees. This is because they follow generally accepted accounting principles in preparing these estimates. If the figures did include current retiree benefits, the average hourly amount would be much higher than they actually report. UAW employees earn far more than most Americans do. Congress should not tax all Americans to bailout the Detroit automakers in order to preserve high earnings for a few.

Information Source: The Heritage Foundation.(2006)

Malobear: Interesting post on Y**** on a thread called "What is the average hourly wage of U.S. auto workers at Toyota and Honda?"
Rick K writes: According to some of the stuff on the tv. the folks that work at the toyota and honda plant with benefits earn on the average of 35 buck an hour While the folks from the BIG 3 make over 75 bucks an hour.
Mind you this include there benefits. I mean the UAW is quite a powerful Union! and ther are people who all they do is walk around and if someone decides to go home they take over that spot! I have a friend who works at one of the Big 3 and He even says that they are way over paid! Some people come in and only work like 4 hrs and then leave so the "floaters" take over to finish up!

cheruscii writes: General Motors Corp. (GM) explained the calculation for its total compensation and benefits in the "Other Benefits" section of its Media Handbook, available on its website at www.media.gm.com/manufacturing/handbook (accessed Nov. 30, 2008):
"The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked. This total is made of two main components: cash compensation ($39.68) and benefit/government required programs ($33.58).
The average annual cash compensation for hourly employees in 2006 was $39.68 per hour. Included in average earnings are straight-time pay, Cost of Living Allowance (COLA), night-shift premiums, overtime premiums, holiday and vacation pay. In 2003, GM workers logged 41,363 (hours in 000’s) in overtime hours for an average of 371 hours per worker; in 2004, 39,409 overtime hours for an average of 374 hours per worker; in 2005, 33,555 overtime hours for an average of 337 hours per worker; and in 2006, 27,265 overtime hours for an average of 315 hours per worker.
Benefit/government required programs in 2006 added an additional $33.58 for each active hour worked. These costs include: group life insurance, disability benefits, and Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB), Job Security (JOBS), pensions, unemployment compensation, Social Security taxes, and hospital, surgical, prescription drug, dental, and vision care benefits."

Tink: Jack said,

Tink,just because the conditions that are being screwed out of the workers are the same as in your state doesn't make it right.These wages and conditions were fought for by our fathers and grandfathers and shouldn't be taken lightly.If this happens then we have nothing to pass onto our children.

My reply

Jack, I wasn't trying to say it was right or wrong. I was trying to make it clear that the wage that they will be still receiving is not some pauper pay. They will still maintain a higher standard of living then many (if not most) employees doing the same job.

David is accurate when he says that private school teachers make far less then public school teachers (that is a very good example and one that I DO know about first hand) Both teachers hold the same certificate of teaching. Both paid the same amount for their schooling. One was fortunate enough to get into the public sector, one wasn't.

Chrono, is also accurate when he talks about our manufacturing jobs going overseas AND they are never coming back. (however, I am sure that should be a different topic all together)

Jack, we have NO money. Who's fault is it? Who gives a rats ass at this point who is at fault, who gives a rats ass at this point who caused it, when, why or how. THAT will not change the fact that it is a fact.

I'm not for or against a union. I can only base my opinions of unions on my own experience.

I was part of a union and honestly, the union did crap for us (us, being the hard, diligent worker). The only people that benefited as far as I am concerned are the lazy asses that didn't want to work. The ones who sloughed off. THOSE people got the same raise I did, the same benefits and they didn't even have to work. Ohhhhhhh, I suppose I could have pulled the same crap. I could have let my attendance fall to 65%, I could have become some drunk. NO worries, the union contract said that I could have crappy attendance and if I became a drunk...well, hell...then I have to be sent to treatment. No way would I have lost my job! I was protected.

Sorry, BUT that is pathetic and the public shouldn't have to pay for crap like that.

I don't know how your unions work Jack and I don't know the integrity of union members in your country. I do know first hand though how lazy (at least the bunch I worked with) truly are.

So who is screwing who?

edit- spelling

the real slim DEEPy: the teachers hardly got screwed. the increased benfit pay-outs were being applied to prevent lay-offs. HOW MANY PRIVATE SECOR EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN LAID OFF SINCE THE COLLAPSE WHEN WE ARE AT 9.6% UNEMPLOYMENT? millions!!! AND HOW MANY WISCONSON TEACHERS GOT LAID OFF? zero!!! THEY ARE MERELY BEING ASKED TO REVERT TO THE COMPENSATION PACKAGE THAT PAID THEIR BILLS WELL 2 YEARS AGO. isnt losing the last raise (which should have never been given, due to the budget), better than to risk getting laid off?

the real slim DEEPy: the average liberal is never thankful for what they have, being in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. no matter how much one is paid, their whole worldview is shattered if someone else has an ounce more...

the real slim DEEPy: private schools can educate better for much less money. throwing money at the schools doesnt fix anything. what privats schools have are teachers who are committed to their students- not their compensation.

the commitment to the students in the public schools is hardly displayed when 40% of teachers "fake sick" and abscond on their students to protect their compensation packages.

franklin1950: greed and averice

from the liberal left the continuous demand ... share the wealth .... take the wealth of others .

from the same liberal left ..... not my wealth .... take the wealth of others

davidk14: .

Outback said: …poor confused geriatric…frazzled…make a nice hot cup of Cocoa…take a bex…have a nice lie down…. suggest counting sheep..[looking forward to] telling all the boys how I seem to really wind up this crazed tea party nutcase from Arizona.


David responds:

: : : : More of the same old Outback. :slip and slide: …wish there was an emote for that.

Have fun with the boys…and the sheep. Definitely practice safe sxy.

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chronology: David, with respect, those comments about Jack are placing you in the same category of some of the scum we get here on Wire. Never thought a Guy like you would associate with scum.

David, do you not see the irony in your comparison with American schoolchildren and Danish kids? American Moms are struggling with high unemployment, long working hours, high gas prices, low wages, family break down, high unemployment. One Mom was forced onto a 'Workfare Programme' where she had to travel 3 hours to work as a cleaner for 8 hours on Minimum Wage, then travel back home for three hours. A total of 14 hours a day away from home. Her 10 year old son could expect a lot of supervision and support there hey David?

Compare that with Denmark, low unemployment, high wages, free Health Care, Free Child Care, excellent schools well equipped where Teachers have a lower ratio of pupils per teacher to instruct. David, you are joking with us all now, how can American families possibly do as well as Danish families. American kids are like any kids, they need support, security and encouragement, do you think they have equal support as Danish kids?

8pc wage cut you say is not bad? (well there is no need to answer that is there).

Mallo. The problem with Autoworkers 'costs', is a problem that some of us were talking ourselves mute trying to explain last year. It is the cost of Health Care in the U.S. Mallo, you are a clever Guy. Care to tell folks here how much of Ford and GMs Income goes into paying Medical Bills?

Malobear: "how much of Ford and GMs Income goes into paying Medical Bills?"
I am not sure what your question really is.If I am reading your question right,they pay nothing,as the benifits GM and Ford pays out is in insurance. I think the pryor post seems to explain the costs from a employer standpoint in relation to what the employer pays out per hour in benifits.
UAW and the Teamsters Union are the most powerful Unions in the privite sector. Their health benifits are better than the benifits I get and I work for one of the top universities and hospitals in this country,go figure.

davidk14: .

To those that start to read this. It is rather long...again...but it is what it is. Thanks.

Outback, please don't read this! You will just get sick and say something that will prove a point. Thanks.



Chrono said: “…those comments about Jack are placing you in the same category of some of the scum we get here on Wire. Never thought a Guy like you would associate with scum.

David responds:

Some might think your comment places you and Outback as the CEO and COO of “scum”. My comments about Outback and you are tame in comparison to your personal attacks not only directed to me, but to others that disagree with you two jokers.


Chrono said: David, do you not see the irony in your comparison with American schoolchildren and Danish kids?

David responds:

You fail to address that American Public Schools have fallen from the top 5 to 14th or 15th. You also fail to hold politicians and most of those in the Teachers Union responsible for failing the American children of this country. In many cities, and I have posted this before, they fail to educate and the graduate rate is only, in some instances 50%.

Chrono said: American Moms are struggling with high unemployment, long working hours, high gas prices, low wages, family break down, high unemployment.

David responds:

You think only single moms are having this issue? You're giving them a free pass? My (ex) wife who I respect tremendously, we had real hard times yet our kids were fed, housed and educated.

It was our #1 goal…education was priority number one. When we realized the Public School System was not going to educate our kids, we decided to sacrifice vacations, nights out, and anything else that was non essential and we placed our kids, all three in Charter Schools.

We owed tremendous amounts of money to educate our daughters since the Public School System had failed us. Millions of other families did and are doing the same thing. So don’t give us a song and dance and crocodile tears about people forced to do this or that.

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davidk14: .

It’s all about making a decision and moving forward with it. There is a motto which I’m sure you have never heard of. “When the going gets tough, the tough get going.”

We had one car, two jobs, two different schools to jockey transportation to and from and did this and also jockied the karate lessons and basketball practices as well. Sometimes we drove 350 miles a day between us. The wife and I slept less than 5 hours a night. No crocodile tears please.

You, me, the single mom, the divorced dad, all have choices and what you choose to decide what is important, then you do what you have to do.

There is a girl at work who is a single mom and is raising one great kid. She decided to do what was needed to make sure her child has a better life than she does. That’s what makes Americans great. One generation making life better for the next generation. No crocodile tears please.

Chrono said: American kids are like any kids, they need support, security and encouragement, do you think they have equal support as Danish kids?

David responds:

You suggest Danish mom and dads are better than American mom and dads? Get real.

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davidk14: .

David concludes this post with:

Chrono, you again have miss-stated the facts regarding Denmark. I’ve left this part of my comments to the end of this post for all to see how you tried to invalidate my previous post, which of course is what you do.


You said, “Compare that with Denmark, low unemployment, high wages, free Health Care, Free Child Care, excellent schools and

How the Danish Welfare State Broke the National Economy
By James Cessna

"And there is no guarantee that the foreign lenders will share the Danish perception of an ideal society whose main priority is the public redistribution of income.”

According to a slew of economic experts, the Danish economy is in a mess and time is running out for the welfare model in its present form.

Originally meant to serve the weakest members of society, the welfare state widely expanded in the 1970s, resulting in an explosion in public expenses in what is perhaps the world’s most comprehensive and generous welfare system.

The repercussions of this explosion are very clear in today’s economy as the doomsday reports are piling up, and experts predict public deficits as far as the eye can see.

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