Distaste for the U.S. Constitution (Page 2)

chronology: Mr David. Again respects to folks in Arizona, a little girl was also shot dead by this guy, you cannot imagine what her family is going through.

You say people could have picked up on signs the shooter was giving off. Last year a guy walked around Cumbria England shooting over a dozen people, leaving them dead in the street. The guy was no insane loner. He enjoyed regular visits to brothels in Thailand with friends. Drugs booze prostitutes and bar crawling was his favourite holiday pass-time. When trying to understand what he did, police psychiatrists suspect an complicated family dispute originally led to murder. But the guy took so much pleasure in the act of shooting his family, he then went outside on a killing spree, which he seems to have enjoyed every minute of. The Police just cannot predict people like that, no one can.

IamEggman: if anything good can come from the actions of this deranged young man, maybe the poisonous tone of political discussion in the U.S might be curbed. And some serious conversations can begin about how to find a way out of the economic mess the country is in at the moment.
But i wont hold my breath, too many people make too much money from causing division.

chronology: This division among Americans is becoming disturbing. The bitterness between the parties has always been there like in most countries, but the Monica Lewinsky incident and the public humiliation of Mr Clinton and his family seems to have galled Dems. The Florida 2000 Election results also did little for harmony. Hopefully the need to work together to solve the economic problems will bring Americans together, or at least co-operate together.

davidk14: .

Eggman said: … if anything good can come from the actions of this deranged young man, maybe the poisonous tone of political discussion in the U.S might be curbed. And some serious conversations can begin about how to find a way out of the economic mess the country is in at the moment. But i wont hold my breath, too many people make too much money from causing division.

David responds: This deranged young man is just that, deranged. He is so far out there that he is mentally ill. His actions (so far) have been reported to do have nothing to do with the weather, politics of the left or right or for that matter up or down. Having a serious conversation about the economy has nothing to do with this situation.


To think that people have said that it’s Governor Palin’s fault or it’s the fault of free speech and that free speech needs to be curbed and controlled. Perhaps you are correct, too many people make too much money for causing division.


The Arizona shooter is just sick…mentally ill. An insanity defense has already been discussed. He went to court today and no determination of his plea was discussed. I believe he will eventually plead for an insanity defense.

Politics and politicians will come and go, but this case probably will stay in the courts for years unless of course he pleads guilty of murdering 6 people and attempted murder of 14 others. He not only has local and state laws to deal with, he also has federal laws to deal with since one of the murdered was a Federal Judge.

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Eggman said: And some serious conversations can begin about how to find a way out of the economic mess the country is in at the moment.

David responds: Serious conversations are taking place ever since the Nov 2nd vote changed history.

Here is the new Speaker of the House of the 112th Congress...

Good stuff...







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IamEggman: David,
I never said the gunman was politically motivated. I was making the connection between a politician being targeted and the divisions between the political parties and the language used is becoming more toxic and violent. Even American journalists who report from the UK have been stunned at how vitriolic the language used by politicians and commentators.
Also, it has nothing to do with free speech. It has to do with people, politicians and news corporations, deliberately causing division in order to profit from it, regardless of the long term consequences.

Malobear: It seems the media is looking at everything from Talk Radio to a leftist punk band contributing to this young mans actions. And here is a short except from a article in the nydailynews.com
"A sinister shrine reveals a chilling occult dimension in the mind of the deranged gunman accused of shooting a member of Congress and 19 others.
Hidden within a camouflage tent behind Jared Lee Loughner's home sits an alarming altar with a skull sitting atop a pot filled with shriveled oranges.
A row of ceremonial candles and a bag of potting soil lay nearby.
Experts on Sunday said the elements are featured in the ceremonies of a number of occult groups."
The young man was a nut case and people that knew him say they were terrified and thought if anyone would fit into doing this type of thing,he would.
I see a time coming when profiling will become more common,why you would ask? The gun industry has way too much power and too much money for gun control or any ban to ever become reality. To me its blaming the instrument of death,not the person of death.
The liberal media seems to want to blame the actions of a mental case on anything but the nut case himself.
Prayers go out to the U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.).

davidk14: .

Eggman said on page 3 of this thread:

...if anything good can come from the actions of this deranged young man, maybe the poisonous tone of political discussion in the U.S might be curbed. And some serious conversations can begin about how to find a way out of the economic mess the country is in at the moment.
But i wont hold my breath, too many people make too much money from causing division.


Eggman says: I never said the gunman was politically motivated. I was making the connection between a politician being targeted and the divisions between the political parties and the language used is becoming more toxic and violent.


David responds: There is no connection of the politician being shot and political motivations because there were no political motivations.

There is no proof…no facts. This man’s sanity is in question. The Sherriff’s Officers were called to his school due to his crazy behavior, his fellow students in his classes were deathly afraid of him and reported him many times. Even teachers were complaining about this guy. It takes a lot for a school, a college to call the Sheriff’s Office FIVE TIMES…on the SAME GUY. The shooter was thrown out of the school. But nobody was connecting the dots.

A mental health professional stated on the radio today that most mentally ill people are non-violent to others and picking out that one potential mass murderer is next to impossible. There are not enough mental health professionals to zero in on that one really sick person.

So he is just one of the many loons walking our streets living and creating a fake reality.

He is so far out there that he is not in our world of reality. That’s been confirmed.

So you fell into the left wing meatgrinder influencing you that this situation was somehow connected to politics. Where else would you get an idea like that now that you know the facts?


Within minutes, fools from the left wing propaganda machine sent out two very curious posts. One was that Sara Palin was involved and that free speech caused this issue. How crazy is that? This is the crap that fills the airwaves.

*******-*******------

Eggman said: Also, it has nothing to do with free speech. It has to do with people, politicians and news corporations, deliberately causing division in order to profit from it, regardless of the long term consequences.

David responds: Divide and destroy = more profits? No, I think not. Business people work smart and don't like 'controversy' (bad for business) and they do it best when there is no political strife. They flourish and grow. They make incredible profits. I don’t think that they want to destroy….no profit in it.


Now the second part of the sentence, “…and the divisions between the political parties and the language used is becoming more toxic and violent” or…

“The divisions between the political parties and the language used is becoming more toxic and violent.”

Here is what I see, what I hope, and they better follow through. The following is the language of the 112th Congress. Now is that toxic or again is there disinformation out there proving otherwise? If there is, I’d like to see it.

IamEggman: David,
I stated that there was no political motivation for what the gunman did, so dont accuse me of falling into some left wing meat grinder.
I simply pointed that maybe now the poisonous divisions in American politics created by politicians themselves and the media might be addressed. You are old enough to know that political discussion hasnt always been like this. Or maybe you have been sucked so far up Fox's arse you now cant see the light (see how easy it is to get personal)

chronology: David. Do you seriously sit there in front of your computer and type out that there are not anti social people who try to devide Americans against each other, play you off against other, if not for profit, then from the psychopathic pleasure it gives them. You are all talking about 'mental cases' here. 10 per cent of people are psychopaths Mr David. They may not become full blown psychos, but they are anti social, and getting you fighting among each would give them multiple orgasms. Don't be devided, stay One Nation America.

davidk14: I stated fact...and you admit you got personal.

davidk14: .

Chrono,

Since you did not say anything in your response to challenge any specific item from my post, I’m glad you agree with my comments.

The loon from Tucson was not influenced by anything or anyone other than himself. There is no left or right here, it’s called mental illness.

Perhaps there are those that get psychopathic pleasure it gives them. To help me out so I can go to the source of your comment, can you name a few of these individuals or direct me to your research you did on your last post? It would be interesting reading for me. Thanks.

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chronology: David, we are talking about 'Human Nature'. There are only about ten types of Human Personality, tho of course, no one is purely a 'deep thinking intellectual' or a 'loyal friend' or 'psychopath' or 'carer' etc Type.

When we think of psychopaths, we generally think of criminals, as they are likely to clash at some point with the Law and become an inmate among your daughters Prisoners. But not all psychopaths are like that. It may surprise you to know the most successful surgeons are often psychopathic in the 'clinical' not criminal sense of the word. The reason for their superb control and indifference to shoving their hand into peoples guts, is that they do not see people as people, there is a slight distortion in the way they see other people, (they see people like 'dolls', so they are not at all squeamish about holding your intestines and having a good look into your guts.

When psychopaths enjoy pitting people against each other, they get the same buzz a gambler gets when he wins a wager. The things I am writing are way above the heads of the average Forum reader, they do have the learning to understand these things, but you asked for an explanation, and I have given you one.

IamEggman: David,
I clearly stated that that the gunman was not politically motivated. yet you accused me of falling into a left wing meat grinder (Isnt that personal, and not fact? So you got personal first)
The point that i was making is that maybe now it is time for politicians and commentators to take stock and realise that the increasingly violent language being used will inevitably result in actual violence. If not this time then soon.
Also if you dont believe that there are people and corporations who want those divisions to continue then you are truly gullible and have already fallen for their tricks.

davidk14: Perhaps there are those that get psychopathic pleasure it gives them. To help me out so I can go to the source of your comment, can you name a few of these individuals or direct me to your research you did on your last post? It would be interesting reading for me. Thanks.

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franklin1950: i have been watching " msnbc " news and comentary .
their analysis is obviously correct , unbiased and politivally non-partisan.


never let a crisis go to waste .

chronology: Hi David. In a way am sorry I brought up the subject of 'psychopaths' now, as it is way above the head of 99 per cent of the people here. Well you ask for examples of 'psychopaths' is history. That depends on who you talk to. Some people see Jesus Christ as a deranged peasant with delusions of grandeur, hearing voices and tripping into hallucinations. Not everyone would agree. Same with psychopaths, ones villain is another mans hero. Bernie Madoff is cheered as a genius by some, not by most people.

As for the sources of my comments. Well I would advise you to visit the Psychology section of your City Library, if you don't want to get into the heavy stuff of Freud Jung and Adler, then you can read popular writers like Arthur Janov who describes Psychopaths sympathetically in Primal Scream. Alfred Adler had little sympathy for psychopaths, he thought homosexuals were all psychopaths, filled with hatred for each other. Psychopaths are useful to some people. In Germany in the 1970s Terrorists recruited many psychopaths straight from mental hospitals. Nazi's did the same in the 1930s.

davidk14: Chrono,

Thanks for your post.

Just exactly, how do you know so much about Psychopaths?

Just kidding...don't go nuts and grab a gun or nothin...

Thanks again.

IamEggman: david
Did you hear that Roger Ailes, the head of Fox news, has ordered everyone at the station to tone down the rhetoric in the wake of the shooting? Why do you suppose he did that? Do you still believe that there aren't people and corporations who seek to either cause or widen divisions so they can profit from it?
Also i just watched an interview with a group of senators, republican and democrat, who admitted that the language and imagery used has been incendiary.
And on a more personal level, if you dont mind me asking, how did you feel about Sarah Palin's 'blood libel' remark.

chronology: David. I never set out to study psychopaths, they just came up when I was reading Freud, Jung, Adler, Erikson and others. Erickson was asked to study Hitlers speeches and submit a report to the U.S. Army. Frankly I have my doubts about any use of psychoanalysis to interpret peoples actions in History, or Analytical psychology, you just get totally different reports from each analyst. Also leaders are usually prisoners of events around them, almost every decision they make is a knee jerk reaction.

davidk14: .

Eggman said: …i just watched an interview with a group of senators, republican and democrat, who admitted that the language and imagery used has been incendiary.

David responds:

Here are a few of those incendiary comments that have been made:

“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
“Get in Their Faces!”
“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
“Hit Back Twice As Hard”
“We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
“It’s time to Fight for it.”
“Punish your enemies.”
“I’m itching for a fight.”

Definitely incendiary comments.

Those comment were made by the President of the United States, Barack Obama.


Telling his followers he's "ready for a fight" with Republicans who he labeled "hostage takers" is just one example.

Telling his followers "Punish your enemies" is acceptable to you?


The President is the one who sets the political tone. Constantly blaming, attacking and slurring political opponents begins and ends with the CEO of the country. But then, he has never been a CEO of anything.

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Eggman said: Did you hear that Roger Ailes, the head of Fox news, has ordered everyone at the station to tone down the rhetoric in the wake of the shooting?

David responds: Here is an ABCNews report of that conversation “in its entirety”.

Fox News' Roger Ailes Tells His Commentators to 'Shut Up, Tone It Down'
Conservative Media Tycoon Pledges Peace, but Fiery Rhetoric Continues to Dominate Airwaves

By HUMA KHAN
ABCNews

It was merely a matter of hours after Saturday's shooting rampage in Arizona that finger-pointing and political vitriol took hold.

Liberal commentators and bloggers took aim at conservatives -- chiefly Sarah Palin -- for putting out a map last March that put the districts of 20 House Democrats in cross-hairs, including that of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot in the head and remains in intensive care at Arizona University Hospital.

Conservatives, meanwhile, blasted the left for turning the tragic shooting into a political issue.

Now, the president of Fox News, Roger Ailes, has called for a cease-fire, vowing to tone down the political rhetoric, even though he dubbed his targeting by liberals "bullshit."

"We looked at the Internet, and the first thing we found in 2007, the Democrat party had a targeted map with targets on it for the Palin district. These maps have been used for years that I know of. I have two pictures of myself with a bull's-eye on my head. This is just bullshit," he said in an interview with Russell Simmons that was posted on the liberal entertainment mogul's website, globalgrind.com.

davidk14: "Both sides are wrong, but they both do it," Ailes continued. "I told all of our guys, shut up, tone it down, make your argument intellectually. You don't have to do it with bombast. I hope the other side does that."


In Washington, leaders of both parties have called for civility, including President Obama, who cautioned against attributing any political motives to the accused killer, Jared Lee Loughner.

Tragic incidents tend to unite political foes in unusual ways. Republicans and Democrats in Washington have demonstrated a sense of bipartisanship that recalls the unity seen after the Oklahoma City bombing or the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

But there is little doubt among political players that the sense of calm in Washington is a phenomenon of the moment, and on the airwaves, it may be even harder to achieve.

Conservative and liberal commentators alike have called on Americans to denounce violence, but they continue to spar amongst each other despite a call for peace.

"I think to a certain extent obviously the tragedy on Saturday makes people reflect a little bit but I would argue that several months from now, or even a month from now, when you get back into heated debates on pretty divisive issues, the rhetoric may accelerate again," said Republican strategist Ed Rollins.

"I applaud what Roger [Ailes] suggested. I suppose other networks will start to follow suit for a short period of time, [but] when you get into the battles again -- whether it's repealing the health care bill or anything else -- people have very strong feelings. They express them in strong ways," he said.

Confrontational rhetoric isn't new to American politics, but it has intensified in recent years with the growth of cable media and blogs. The lack of personal dialogue and relationships among politicians on both the left and the right has also added to the divisiveness, Rollins said.

Most Americans do not see a political connection in Loughner's motives, according to a CBS poll released today.

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IamEggman: David,
I never said that republicans were solely responsible for using violent language. I clearly stated that i hoped both sides would learn from this tragedy. I could list comments from republican or conservative politicians and commentators, but that would only inflame the issue. The idea that the president sets the tone of a debate is nonsense; issues carry over from previous elections, as does the language.
You never responded to my question about Sarah palin's use of the term 'blood libel'.

davidk14: .

Eggman said: The idea that the president sets the tone of a debate is nonsense.

David responds: According to you, if the President of the United States has nothing to do with the tone of a debate, then whatever Palin or anyone else for that matter says or has to said is nonsense as well, whether it be good comments or bad.

However, Palin's exact words were,

"Especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding, journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn."
"That is reprehensible," she added.

The term blood libel goes back to the Middle Ages and refers to an accusation that was made against Jews. The accusation was that Jews would take non-Jewish children, fatten them, kill them, and use their blood in the Passover ritual. Such accusations were, of course, untrue.

The same is true of Palin's use of the term in regards to the media's actions.

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IamEggman: David,
You gave a list of Obama's comments and then said the president sets the tone. The implication being that he is responsible for the language used by both parties and commentators. I have stated more than once now that i dont blame any single party for the problems, yet you seem unable, or unwilling, to accept that. You seem to see my comments as an attack on conservatives like yourself. Why is that?

davidk14: .

Eggman said:

You gave a list of Obama's comments and then said the president sets the tone. The implication being that he is responsible for the language used by both parties and commentators. I have stated more than once now that i dont blame any single party for the problems, yet you seem unable, or unwilling, to accept that. You seem to see my comments as an attack on conservatives like yourself. Why is that?

David responds: Interesting. I’m going to, with all respect to you, I am reposting your last post and just going to change one word. Then I have a few comments after, thank you:


Repost of eggman’s last post to davidk14:

You gave a list of Bush’s comments and then said the president sets the tone. The implication being that he is responsible for the language used by both parties and commentators. I have stated more than once now that i dont blame any single party for the problems, yet you seem unable, or unwilling, to accept that. You seem to see my comments as an attack on conservatives like yourself. Why is that?

Davids responds:

Eggman,

If memory serves me, you never gave Bush a break anytime, anywhere, anyhow.

I’m not speaking about the “politics” of the time. I’m talking about the "abusive rhetoric" used against him by the left, and just a short 1 year and 11 months ago.

Is it possible that you are so easy to “at least try and level the playing field” playing a centrist with this administration than the last administration? Maybe?

Less than two years ago, the left used some of the worst “political attack politics” that modern media has ever seen. Were you there to “try and level the playing field” or perhaps you were being centrist? Perhaps?

If memory serves, your political positions were considered left during Bush? Centrist? Maybe?

Or perhaps you are currently looking down from a strategic point from 50,000 feet? Did you give Bush the same opportunity? Perhaps you did.

Perhaps not..

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