Israel plans 1,300 settler homes (Page 2)

davidk14: .

Outback,

Re-read my first post on this page and then read my second post. I did't dream this stuff up. These are quotes, not intrepretations from news media's or others.

The Oslo accoreds were signed. Why didn't they move forward? What happened amost immediately after the signing? Does second infatada ring a bell? Do a little research.

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Outbackjack: Well heres the problem.The statement that Abbas supposedly said contradicts itself as Fatah has already recognised Israel.

As for doing research then I am sure you really dont want to go into the reasons of what caused the second intifada.

davidk14: .

Outback,

There are a number of documented reasons for the second infatada which started after the failure of the Oslo Accords.



These folks that I "quoted" said what they said and mean what they said. There's no running away from it. They do not agree with their predecessors.

Let me remind you of what was said:



Senior Fatah Leader Insists PLO Never Recognized Israel

(This entry was posted on Sunday, March 28th, 2010 at 7:24 am and is filed under Islam, Koran and the Jews, Israel: Defense and security.)

Senior Fatah leader Muhammad Dahlan dropped a bombshell on Palestinian television when he insisted that his faction, which controls the PLO, has never recognized Israel and thus has not asked Hamas to do so.


“I want to say for the thousandth time, in my own name and in the name of all of my fellow members of the Fatah movement: We do not demand that the Hamas movement recognize Israel. On the contrary, we demand of Hamas not to recognize Israel because Fatah does not recognize Israel even today,” stated Dahlan.


It is only the government of the Palestinian Authority that must “recognize” Israel, Dahlan claimed, and not out of conviction, but in order to receive needed funding from the international community.

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Outbackjack: So the Palestinian Authority does recognise Israel.
But Fatah is denying it does.

davidk14: Yep.

chronology: David for any Political success there has to be broad support of the People. Other wise you end up like Mr Ceascue, the leader of Romania in 1989. You make a booming speech, only to have the crowd tell you to p\\s off. That is a chilling example of how some Governments can be out of touch with the Public. To reach out a hand of friendship to all Palestinians from all walks of life and win their sincere support is the way forward. The best way to start down that road is to lift the siege of Gaza and start meeting people and shaking hands, looking into their eyes, not down the sights of a rifle at them. When Rome ruled Palestine, most of the people there loved Rome, despite being conquered, only a few religious sh'theads stirred up trouble. If Rome can achieve that, Israel surly can live as a neighbour.

Outbackjack: I have gone through this whole thread David and I have yet to see any comment from you acknowledging the main topic of the thread.

Israel does not want peace.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

davidk14: .

Hum…Let’s see…Israel opens its hand..Out stretches its hand and leaves Gaza….An Egyptian territory until 1967. And instead of “meeting people and shaking hands, looking into their eyes”, the Palestinians fire off thousands of rockets constituting aggression and acts of war.

Perhaps it’s time for Hamas to stretch its hand in peace, remove from its charter the following and recognize Israel’s right to exist:

• "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
• Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
• "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him…”

Perhaps it time for the Palestinians to remove from their charter quotes from Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.

• The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterized by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgment, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Perhaps it’s time for those who recently said the following to outreach their hand for peace:

(Published: 10.15.10, 19:06) Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state. During a meeting with heads of the Hadash party in Ramallah, Abbas said, "Had we given up on our principles, we would have signed an agreement years ago." Yasser Abed Rabo, secretary of the Palestinian Liberation Organization's Executive Committee, as well as other PLO officials, also attended the meeting. He spoke of the "unacceptable demand" to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Seems there are those, especially people like Outback, who want Israel to do all the heavy lifting here but not hold the Palestinians accountable for anything, not even for Israel’s right to exist.

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Outbackjack: Israel is the occupying force and you still havent answered the question.

davidk14: .

Outback said: Israel is the occupying force and you still havent answered the question.

David responds: I have responded, numerous times. You’re just not listening.

It’s a fact that Israel on “numerous occasions” held its hand out to create peace with its neighbors. Israel created peace with Jordan and Egypt. Israel also left Gaza to move "peace" forward.

Israel recognized the PLO, the same organization that murdered Israeli athletes at the Olympics...to move peace forward.

Israel has sat at the table with the Palestinians many times and they the Palestinians have walked away. Israel even stopped building in E. Jerusalem and the West bank for almost a year and nothing became of it.

The problem every time Israel puts it hand out for peace, they the Palestinians want Israel to cease to exist…pure and simple. What have the Palestinians done to move peace forward so as to live side by side in peace and harmony?

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Malobear: Here is a somewhat lengthy article,but interesting.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45471.html

davidk14: .

Malo,

Very interesting article and Chrono and Outback should give it a good hard read. They should also know that Politico is financed by Allbritton Communications, which owns television stations in Washington, D.C., and elsewhere, all affiliated with the Disney-owned ABC network. They can feel confident that the information in the article is not “FOX” leaning.


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chronology: Mr David. People who hate Jews, (I do not mean Mr Outback), are constantly quoting statements by Jewish Oddballs to make Jews look like monsters. You do the same with Palestinians. A guy once referred to something I had said 30 years ago. It was obvious he was trying to continue an argument, not resolve an issue. Almost everything you quote by Palestinians was said years ago and is irrelevant to the American backed Peace talks today. Come on David, you can do better than go around in circles. How would Malo react if I started Posting statements made about Indian people made in the past in Colorado, Wyoming and the Dakota Territories?

Moony_xo: As usual David is copy pasting bullshit. The whole state of Israel was born out of terrorism you fool, but that's besides the point.
Settlements are illegal, they're built to control as much land and water as possible. Bibi is just wasting time so they can steal yet MORE land to put crazy extremists on. When I say crazy extremists, I mean it. If Israel was really after peace, they'd start with removing all those stupid settlements.

davidk14: .

Moony,

My so called "copy and paste" is factual and verifiable information whether you like it or not.

If you would like to be more specific, please do so.

Perhaps you would like to "discuss" whether or not the West Bank and E. Jerusalem were a part of Jordan pre 1967 as well as the Gaza belonging to Egypt pre 1967 and what happened during the 1967 war.

Perhaps you would like to “discuss” Jordan and Egypt eventually recognizing Israel and signing of peace agreements and now live peacefully coexisting with Israel.

Perhaps you would also like to “discuss” why Egypt and Jordan did not just "give" the West Bank, E. Jerusalem and Gaza to the Palestinians but gave the lands to Israel during the peace process.

Perhaps you would like to discuss why Egypt at this time has sealed its borders with Gaza.

Perhaps you would like to discuss other topics of interest and I would love to have these discussions with you however, please, without the drama.

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Moony_xo: 1. Well done, you know that those were part of Egypt and Jordan! How is it relevant to settlements in 2010?
2. The governments may have signed "treaties" but you and I both know they're not at peace.
3. Jordan and Egypt didn't give land to Israel, it was stolen and was put under military occupation. Get your facts straight.
4. Because Hosni Mubarak is America and Israel's dog. You think Egyptians support Israel or what? Get a grip of yourself.

I don't remember being dramatic, but whatever makes you sleep @night.

davidk14: .

Moony said: 1. Well done, you know that those were part of Egypt and Jordan! How is it relevant to settlements in 2010?

David responds: It’s very relevant to the present. Pre-1967 “those lands”, West Bank, East Jerusalem were apart of Jordan and Gaza was a part of Egypt.

During the peace processes with Israel, Jordan and Egypt, did not want “those” lands back. Egypt and Jordan during the peace process abandoned those lands to Israel. Those two countries could have easily negotiated that “those lands” be given to the Palestinians but they didn’t. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and they would have returned all “those” other lands as well.

Perhaps a question should be asked, why didn’t they want E. Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza back?

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Moony said: 2. The governments may have signed "treaties" but you and I both know they're not at peace.

David responds: They sure seem like they are at peace. They all have ambassadors and embassies in each other’s countries and freely trade between themselves. No shots have been fired.

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Moony said: 3. Jordan and Egypt didn't give land to Israel, it was stolen and was put under military occupation. Get your facts straight.

David responds: Here you have your facts wrong. Peace treaties were signed and land, specifically the Sinai was returned by Israel to Egypt. No land was stolen. Egypt and Jordan would not have signed peace treaties if that felt that land was stolen.

Again, the question is, why didn’t they, Egypt and Jordan want E. Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza back and abandoning the land to Israel?

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Moony said: 4. Because Hosni Mubarak is America and Israel's dog. You think Egyptians support Israel or what? Get a grip of yourself.

David responds: That’s your opinion to believe. Mubarak is in a tight political space especially with the Muslim Brotherhood wanting to overthrow him and make Egypt another Taliban style country where strict Sharia Law is enforced.

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Moony said: I don't remember being dramatic, but whatever makes you sleep @night.

David responds: What makes me sleep at night has nothing to do with Wire, anyone on Wire or anything said on Wire. Perhaps you are not dramatic, however comments like “Get a grip on yourself” and “As usual David is copy pasting bullshit” are.

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Outbackjack: So you believe David,that Israel should continue its controversial building program in Jerusalem?

Also if you want any idea of how much of a puppet Egypt is then you need look no further than the agreement to build a new wall on its border with Gaza.

I seem to remember Ronald Reagan and many other U.S politicians continually railing against another certain wall and demanding its removal.

davidk14: .

Outback said: So you believe David, that Israel should continue its controversial building program in Jerusalem?

David responds: Why not? Israel is attacked by Jordan and won the West Bank and East Jerusalem. During the negotiations for peace, Jordan abandoned the West Bank and East Jerusalem to Israel. Israel declared the entire city of Jerusalem as their capital. What’s the problem? The Palestinians should be grateful that Israel wants to negotiate to “give” the West Bank to them, the exact same land mass as the West Bank boundaries included in 1967.

Outback said: Also if you want any idea of how much of a puppet Egypt is then you need look no further than the agreement to build a new wall on its border with Gaza.

David responds: The Muslim country of Egypt doesn’t like or want anything to do with the Muslim controlled Hamas who govern and control the population of Gaza. Nobody but Iran and Syria, two Islamic radical, fundamentalist controlled countries, support Hamas. Nobody blames Egypt for trying to keep Hamas from infiltrating Egypt.

Outback said: I seem to remember Ronald Reagan and many other U.S politicians continually railing against another certain wall and demanding its removal.

David responded: You mean the Berlin wall? A wall built by the Soviets to keep the people of East Germany from “escaping” to freedom? The wall Egypt is building or has built is to keep terrorists “out” of their country.

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Outbackjack: So you believe they should continue building in East Jerusalem.Well its quite clear that you are not interested in peace.Duly noted.

Thats funny I seen many Palestinians trying to leave Gaza a few years ago as Egypt sealed the border.

Won the West Bank and Jerusalem???

You mean from the Arab armies who were not Palestinian and were just looking to increase their land mass.
The Palestinians became the meat in the sandwich in that.You just have to look at how Jordan later on massacred thousands upon thousands of Palestinians because of a few terrorists.There was no Arab solidarity there.

Which is just whats going on now.

Collective punishment of millions of people just because a few of them are terrorists.

I suppose you also condone innocent families being massacred by Israeli soldiers because collective punishment is a great idea?

chronology: You tell em Mr Outback. The treatment of the people of Gaza is a disgrace. Even more despicable as the people doing that abusing know perfectly well what it means to be treated like that.

raskyone: On the pluss side Israelis no longer need to fly to Germany to see a concetration camp. They can just walk over to Palestine.

davidk14: .

Your ideas are interesting. Perhaps we should give Texas back to Mexico since we won that land in war. We might as well give N. Mexico, Arizona and California back as well. And to the extreme, give all of the United States back to the Native Americans too.

Your hate for the Jewish State of Israel is obvious and any factual evidence of historic relevance will not change your minds.

>The comment, “So you believe they should continue building in East Jerusalem. Well it’s quite clear that you are not interested in peace. Duly noted.”

Where is it that I ever said I’m not interested in peace? When a child is having a temper tantrum, kicking and screaming on the floor, do you give the child what it wants or does the child need to earn it? The Palestinians need to earn peace. We want!!! We want!!! We want!!! Give me!!! Give me!!! Give me!!! You owe me!!! What? They want something, they need to earn it. Recognize the Jewish State of Israel. Until then, this Palestinian issue will never be resolved.


>The comment, “You tell em Mr Outback. The treatment of the people of Gaza is a disgrace.”

What is a disgrace is how the terrorist government in Gaza, Hamas treats its own people. That’s what is disgraceful and you should be ashamed that you support this vicious and genocidal terrorist government.


>The comment, “On the pluss side Israelis no longer need to fly to Germany to see a concetration camp. They can just walk over to Palestine.”

Another ignorant comment made by someone who has no idea of the facts.


>The comment, “I suppose you also condone innocent families being massacred by Israeli soldiers because collective punishment is a great idea?”

Fact – Israel evacuates the Gaza to move the peace process along per the Oslo Accords. Hamas murders dozens of Palestinians to take control of Gaza.

Hamas attacks Israel and fires “THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS” into Israel trying and succeeding to murder innocent Israeli women and children and you say nothing? You accuse Israel in defending itself? I’m absolutely sure no one wants "you" covering their backs if being attacked by a vicious terrorist organization.


You want peace in the Middle East? Support the concept that Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians recognize the Jewish State of Israel. Then there will be peace.

If you don’t support the concept of recognition of the Jewish State of Israel, you are no better than the murderous terrorist organizations looking to destroy Israel.

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Moony_xo: Well David, Israel hasn't exactly given the Palestinians a map to recognize the Jewish state of Israel by now, has it?

chronology: David, you constantly defend the indefensible. 'Israel gave the Palestinians back Gaza', what Bullsh*t. A Jewish settler in Gaza who was dragged out of her home by her hair by the IDF has nothing but contempt for 'Gaza handback'. She says; 'they threw us out of our homes and gave back Gaza to the Palestinians. They then turned Gaza into a Prison'. It is like me giving you an automobile, then putting bollards all around the car so it cannot move an inch. And then coming back with a sledgehammer and smashing the car to pieces, David, stop being so cruel and heartless.