TERRORISTS-A LOT OF DEPRESSED,DISTRUCTIVE AND MENTALLY DESEASED PEOPLE (Page 4)

oooREDEYEooo
oooREDEYEooo:

...wish eye was alive in the daze when they used to put cy%*@#$ in

'Coke' a Cola...parden the pun..."the real thing"...

oooDOW-JONES-EYEooo

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FogofWar
FogofWar: ...pretty hard to rape a girl whose vagina is infected and full of gangreen because her father slashed it up so that she could not have sy~.

The fact that you have enough time on your hands to look up all those accusations about US torture is nothing more than a testament to how well our boys are doing over there. The better they are at fighting world problems, the farther away from it you are; and so you do not understand the world outside of your "Desperate Housewives" neighbourhood; where the biggest issue on your mind is what celebrity is sleeping with what athlete; and who never cleaned up that coil their dog left on your front yard!

You people know nothing about what is happening there; and until you witness it for yourselves, then don't voice an opinion about something you have no clue about. How many of you have been to Iraq or Afghanistan first hand?

When you live in a sheltered world like we do in North America, you take for granted what you have, and the liberty you are granted. You do not have to see teenage girls being murdered in the streets by their own family because they looked at a boy they were not told to! You have never watched a 6 year old girl starve to death while her brothers freast like kings. You cannot comprehend life there, because you cannot see it. You have a view of the Middle East, based solely off of what you see in your world; and what the media tells you; but the reality is that there are no BMW's parked outside of houses in Afghanistan; there are no 1500 square foot homes with 3 bathroooms and an ensuite. There is no equality.

Many of these Islamic communities practice religious rituals dating back to the dark ages:

"Because I am a girl: I watch my brothers go to school while I stay home

Because I am a girl: I eat only if there is enough food and after everyone else has finished

Because I am a girl: I cannot speak

Because I am a girl: I do not decide for myself...."

Flashie, you are fortunate enough to not live in a society that allows women to be murdered in the streets, while the whole community watches; you do not have to worry about armed men; brandishing AK-47s showing up at your worksite and opening fire, killing many, and taking the rest prisoners because their beards were not long enough...you do not have to send your children away to school wondering if they will return home alive. You do not have to fear your children being kidnapped and turned into a machine of death. You do not have to worry about being killed for reporting a murder, which the police will do nothing about anyways. You do not have to walk down the streets and smell rancid flesh and death everywhere; grow poppies for profits you will never see; watch your children get turned into bombs, and schools blow up every day.

Iraq had no electricity until after the US invaded her. Afghanistan has seen us rebuild over 9,500 schools and counting, and set up 3 Universities.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Yes, there was a handful of US soldiers charged with torturing Iraqi insurgents; but they have been charged! This does not constitute the mentality of every soldier. There are far, far, far more who are there to fight for freedom, and defending the lives of Iraqis. You don't have to look hard to find pictures of US Marines leaving communities, with tears in their eyes; as a child no higher than their waste clings to his leg, not wanting him to go for fear that things will not be as safe as he made them when he is gone.


Last Tuesday Taliban members bombed an Islamic University in Pakistan; killing at least 6 people. Of the 12,000 students, over 50% were women and foreign students....Is this really the world you want to live in Flashie? Pakistan officials have dispatched military forces to known Taliban military installations; the War on Terror seems to have a new ally, Pakistan has had enough too! "Whoever did this is not a supporter of Islam!" said one Pakistani official.

FYI: The Taliban has always been an illegal group. They seized control of Afghanistan in 1996 by murdering the then government of Afghanistan; but at their height, only had managed to gain control of 90% of the nation. To date, they are threatening to murder anyone who votes in the upcoming election....does this sound like a peaceful world to yOU Flashie?

PS. Palestine was a STATE mandated by Britain; known as the British Mandate of Palestine; technically, not a nation.

"i asked you 5 simple questions. which you successfully circumvented and misspelled your way around. you are quite entitled to your opinion im not debating that or trying to shut you up. i dont know what 'field manual' you are spouting about."

I know exaclty of what field manual he is speaking of; it is an orally passed down doctrine used by international terrorist groups to breed a hatred for anyone who is not Islamic, and does not adhere to THEIR law of Islam. It was the cartoons the Taliban were airing teaching children the "glory" of suicide bombing the western world. It is a strategy to tear the US and its allies apart at their homes, to divert attention away from them...and it seems you were suckered into it like they wanted. They claimed they had proof of many of the 'tortures' you claimed; they did not. They claimed they had proof there were no ties to al-queda in Iraq, they did not. They claimed they had proof the US dropped napalm on Fallujah, they did not! They lied countless times; but used the fact that they were there as a cover to these lies, making people think they were eye witnesses, when in reality, they hid in bunkers with the rest of Hussein's families and emerged when it was over to spread anti-war propaganda.

"The press is our chief idealogical weapon"
-Nikita Krushchev


""The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th." --Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007 President G W Bush"

al-queda recruiters were found in Iraq. Are you denying that Hussein wanted the US bombed??
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FogofWar
FogofWar: PS Flashie,, your torture link is not evidence of anything; it is a biast website by anti-war animal rights activists who will, like All forms of media, spin truths, and downright lie to stress their point....don't be so naive as to believe everything you read or hear; learn from the facts; see it with your own two eyes, not through the eyes of a biast person who is obtaining their information through the eyes of a journalist who is obtaining their information to sell their product, that being the news; to gullable people who will eat it up and spread their story to attract more audience for the sole purpose of fatenning their wallets.



"the title of this thread grates me somewhat and smacks of ignorance and some of the comments are quite shocking not to mention contradictory and hypocritical."

And it would seem that your comments are the most hypocritical of all Flashie. Have you been to Iraq or Afghanistan to witness US soldiers in action?



"Outbackjack
Elite Member Lvl. 7 A lot of what flashie has said has come out as a result of parliamentary inquiries in the U.S.
Sad but true."

Yet everything that Flashie, as well as yourself has said outbackjack, is basing an opinion on the ENTIRE ISAF force, based off of the actions of a mere small number. FI, many of the claims of torture never happened....some did yes; but far, far less than posted here.

Canadian Forces have dispatched the Joint Task Force 2, Special Operations unit into Iraq to assist ISAF forces in humanitarian relief there. Contrary to what your prescious Dr. Ismael has said, the US did not blockade hospital treatment, as they have assisted JTF2 in setting up many medical centres; of which outside of the Sunni village of Fallujah (of which both Dr. Ismael and Saddam Hussein were members of) never existed until ISAF forces arrived. Most people within Iraq had NO health care at all; as they had NO hospitals or medical supplies to begin with; in fact, outside of Sunni tribes, Iraq was a very different place; darker and similar to the way it was in the dark ages. One can see how Ismael would make errors in his testimonies of US intervention. Of JTF2s dealing with US forces in Iraq, the US soldiers have been more than cooperative and polite. They have been seen handing out rations of their own to hungry children, playing soccer with children, and even providing them with sporting goods so that they can play on their own. They have assisted us in setting up hospitals, and protecting women abused by their own families. Far from the claims you people have made here. Of all the people on here, not one of you has had any dealings with US soldiers, have you? Then I guess I am the only one who has seen their work; so how is it that you can tell Me how they work?


"David I agree with you when say that both sides need to sit down and resolve the problems of Palestine.
What was offered to the Palestinians was not enough.Palestinians would have had to still negotiate a menagerie of Israeli checkpoints under that agreement."

True, it was not enough, but is this not how negotiation and haggling work? Do car dealerships not try and sell you a vehicle for more than they will settle?? At least Israel is offering to negotiate; the PLO still to this day depicts its flag as the British Mandate of Palestine, BEFORE the creation of Israel....is that not an unreasonable request as well? Surely the Israelites deserve a home of their own; as much as the Palestinians do!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: Outbackjack, you state a casualty listing from Palestinian officials of the deaths caused by Israeli forces; but what about the thousands killed in rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon? Israel is a nation, and war does claim civilian casualties; so those deaths will happen; but surely the continued rocket attacks on Israeli civilians had something to do with Israel's decision to launch those attacks. Killing innocent people is wrong, no matter what side you are on! Both sides have done their share of that; how can anyone take sides to this? Israel, unfortunately, to the Palestinians, is a legitimate nation, Palestine is not! So that will cover Israel's ass when civilian casualties happen; the PLO has to come to a reasonable understanding that meets Israel's requests as well; or they are dooming their own people to continued attacks; and Israel will simply take control of the Gaza strip again to force them out of range of their countrymen. Hamas is unreasonable.



"Killing innocent children is hardly peaceful."

Exactly Outbackjack, and that goes not only for Israel but Palestine as well.

"I could spend all day showing you examples of Israels "peacefulness"."

As anyone can spend all day showing you examples of Palestine's "peacefulness" as well.

Both parties are guilty; time to forget past grudges and build a unified future!


"The first thing that Israel could do is to stop building settlements in the West Bank.They could then rip down their West bank/Berlin wall."

That has been discussed, but it opens their civilians to threats then....why should Israel have to put the lives of their countrymen at risk?


"Both sides need to show good will on this and the U.N needs to roll up its sleeves and force the two sides into a solution."

That's why the UN has peacekeepers there; but until BOTH sides are ready to talk, all the UN can do is mandate ceasefires like we have been.



"All am saying is is folks have a right to Welfare, and to have a child, but Jack are you honestly telling me there are not people out there breeding cross eyed morons like themselves by the half dozen? I know, I went to school with scum like that. Their only contribution to humanity is via the crime statistics"

I have to agree with John. There are far, and I mean far, too many deadbeat parents out their who are dooming their children to a life of crime and driving our education system to the ground. The current Canadian history average in highschool is an "F"!!!!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "They could be given opportunities to excel in front line combat units in the past, how many front line combat units do you have these days.?"

Actually, that I am afraid I will have to disagree with. To be successful in the past (ancient worlds) men had to work together as a team; and that meant brute strength to create an impenetrable wall of shields, known as a phalanx; but they had to understand strategy well enough to know when and how to move, not only as a unit, but to seize advantage of a weakened enemy; and that required far more brains than most have. By the Middle Ages, that had changed; and strategy began to go out the window; but in order to survive the malicious attacks of knights; footsoldiers and archers still had to have enough wits to beat them....of course by the time of the colonial age; all strategy was lost from the battlefield. Only generals and commissioned officers needed to be versed in strategy; soldiers just stood in lines and opened fire on eachother. The only intelligence required of them was to listen to commands as to fire as a unit....so long as they could work as one; they could die as one. In this brief time of history, those people could have been used; but now they are good for nothing but labour jobs; and even a lot of those require more intelligence than some have.



"id hate having power, sincerely, because im fallible and might make errors at what cost? its easy for me to criticise rulers, much harder to bare the responsibility."

Nice to hear that someone understands that! Hindsight is 20/20. Far easier to criticize politicians for being 'corrupt' or 'greedy', but when push comes to shove, how many people out there could really handle their job? If a roofer makes a mistake; most likely a row of shingles may be out of line....if a politician makes a tiny error like that; people's lives and freedom may be on the line...not as easy to deal with as people might think.


" dont this all ring a bit of what hitler did? but much more softly kill, more sophisticated using the jedi mind tricks of spin doctors, pr companies and marketing agencies."

...while I agree with what you say Flashie about junk food, and chemicals/medicines harming us more than anything else; I am smart enough to know that I don't NEED to take a drug to make Me sleep; I would expect the intelligent masses would be able to comprehend marketting ploys from drug companies as well.


"we need moses to come and debunk the pharoe. we are the majority, 'they' depend on keeping us ill informed dumb and blind."

Then step up and take control of your life! If people are really so unhappy, why do they sit back and let it happen??? Because deep down they know their lives are far better! People love to b~&*#, we need to complain about something; it's in our nature! If you truly believe that we are living so terribly, why would you sit back and let it happen? Why do you NEED someone else, like Moses, to do it for you???? If you don't NEED medication to quit smoking, and can do it on your own, why can't you control your life on your own? Take responsibility for your actions....if you sit back and let someone rule your life in a manner you don't like; then YOU are the one who is allowing that to happen; and YOU are the one who is putting your children into a world of despair!
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john1576
john1576: Fog. You may like to enlighten folks here about the B.S. that Hamas fills it's Political writing with. I mean those guys are so way out there man. The only other nutters filling the airwaves with their delusional gibberish are the Iranians. (I refer to the Hamas gibberish about the Jews being behind all the Wars in history, Zionist Bankers ruling the world etc etc etc).
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oooREDEYEooo
oooREDEYEooo:

"EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US" - inspired by short memories !

'...to look up all those accusations about US torture is nothing more than a testament to how well our boys are doing over there. The better they are at fighting world problems,...'
[Ref : FogofWar]

"Your country is only there because your so called super power failed regardless of billions and education on that fateful day the world now refers to as 9/11...real super power !

And what a hide to state they fight the worlds problems when your filthy foreign policies create them...the list is endless...Vietnam just one of the many prefabricated ventures.

If your country fights the worlds problems...why did it take imploding buildings and a missing plane at the Pantagon on that morning to all of a sudden fight the worlds problems !

United Nations and the Red Cross et al has and had a long list for your country...and did so before 9/11...where were your boys for Rwanda and every other world problem post 9/11 ?

As like you done numerous times in South America...you only ever do anything to enhance your evil foreign policies and economy...to study your foreign policy makes me personally as sick as reading about peodophiles and sensless murderers and rapists...it's just as satanic.

I feel sorry for your future...it's just a shame like always...America brings everyone else down with it...and thank GOD nothing lasts forever.

And no...eye don't hate America...eye just don't like it...what a shame for the real intelligent Americans who are not brainwashed yet are stuck in it and with it".

oooSEE-RED-EYEooo

PS : "Harvard should teach American Foreign Policy under the guise of the Black Arts"


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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: "You people know nothing about what is happening there; and until you witness it for yourselves, then don't voice an opinion about something you have no clue about. How many of you have been to Iraq or Afghanistan first hand?"

Who says you have either?
So we are not allowed to have an opinion on these things?
If thats the case we really have to question your twisted idea of freedom.

"When you live in a sheltered world like we do in North America, you take for granted what you have, and the liberty you are granted. You do not have to see teenage girls being murdered in the streets by their own family because they looked at a boy they were not told to! You have never watched a 6 year old girl starve to death while her brothers freast like kings. You cannot comprehend life there, because you cannot see it. You have a view of the Middle East, based solely off of what you see in your world; and what the media tells you; but the reality is that there are no BMW's parked outside of houses in Afghanistan; there are no 1500 square foot homes with 3 bathroooms and an ensuite. There is no equality."

And our armies going in there stealing their resources is going to help them is it?Just think how these countries could flourish if they for the first time in centuries were in charge of their own destiny.Extremism would diminish as the standard of living and education rose.

"You don't have to look hard to find pictures of US Marines leaving communities, with tears in their eyes; as a child no higher than their waste clings to his leg, not wanting him to go for fear that things will not be as safe as he made them when he is gone."

There is no shortage of people saying good riddance and throwing stones at U.S soldiers.

"Last Tuesday Taliban members bombed an Islamic University in Pakistan; killing at least 6 people. Of the 12,000 students, over 50% were women and foreign students....Is this really the world you want to live in Flashie? Pakistan officials have dispatched military forces to known Taliban military installations; the War on Terror seems to have a new ally, Pakistan has had enough too! "Whoever did this is not a supporter of Islam!" said one Pakistani official."

It is so ironic that the ISI (Pakistan Intelligence agency) played a huge part in founding the Taliban and supporting them.
Like I have said before,the war is spilling into Pakistan.The U.S invasion recruited a whole new layer of people to the Talibans cause.
Why do the words you reap what you sow come to mind.

"al-queda recruiters were found in Iraq. Are you denying that Hussein wanted the US bombed?? "

I thought Saddam hussein was dead????????

I never said that all of the International forces were responsible for torture.The examples though are shocking and a lot of the information that has come out is a result of official enquiries.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: "Of all the people on here, not one of you has had any dealings with US soldiers, have you? Then I guess I am the only one who has seen their work; so how is it that you can tell Me how they work?"

I say again,how do we know you havent?
How do you know that none of us have?
You could be some E-soldier who spends his time tossing off to Janes magazine.

Do I have to repeat myself Fog?
I dont condone any killing of innocents on any side in any conflict.


I said:
"The first thing that Israel could do is to stop building settlements in the West Bank.They could then rip down their West bank/Berlin wall."

You said:
That has been discussed, but it opens their civilians to threats then....why should Israel have to put the lives of their countrymen at risk?

It could be argued that they are already putting their citizens at risk by taking more Palestinian territory in the West Bank and leaving their citizens on remote outposts.

The U.N has repeatedly told Israel to return to pre 1967 borders which it ignores,there have been many other U.N resolutions that Israel repeatedly ignores..This is not Israel being reasonable.

Lets hope these war criminals on both sides are brought to justice.
But dont hold your breath as the U.S repeatedly uses its veto to block justice.
What do you say about your precious U.S fog when they do this?
Kind of makes your claims of freedom by the U.S look very hypocritical.

The world needs to stand up and stop arming Israel to the teeth if they want to be serious about fixing things with this ongoing terrible situation.
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flashie
flashie: thank you for a thorough and well put together reply fogofwar. its too long for me to respond to every point youve made right this minute, but i will endeavor to do so over the next hr or two.

until desperate western housewives is broadcasting.
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flashie
flashie: pretty much what jack said.

just for the record, no i havent seen any 'action', thats not to say im a brat with a silver spoon either.

my flat mate spent more than 10yrs in service. various tours, iraq afghan ireland. intel. specialsed weapons. joined a satanic cult. is a freemason. has killed women, 'you have to they attack you', he's got a very dark heart and i belive him when he says civi life is harder than being in the army for him anyway. its f*z%$% with his head. alot.

also i am good friends with a field nurse in what was blackwatch (not water) regiment. shes a sergeant now. her father and one brother have been killed in recent years. she still has a living serving bro in military police. ive heard stories of insurgents cutting the throat of an 11 yr old in front of his family, because the family spoke to british troops.

my flatmate is similar to you in attitude fog. he says you have to be there to know what its like. he said its never for politics, but looking after his 'mates'.

he truly belives in satanism. black. truth. and nicknamed me loki after the norse god of mischief because of my blatant faith in god and things islamic. he says 'youre like loki, youll get punished but you are legion too'

well, im not legion but i am here to question fake gods. i got no beef with you mr fog. if you served i tip my hat to you for at least having balls.

but the facts remain. iraq is an illegal occupancy. those good and evil troops have no business in afghan except to profit for the governments/criminals who sent them there. the torture is disgusting.

its a mincing machine that turns normal ppl into psychopaths.

but what do i know? american gladiators is on, pass the koolaid
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flashie
flashie: p.s. if you want to list atrocities by groups (once friends of the western establishment) to bend opinion. so will i.

please dont defend the politicians. defend the squaddies by all means. but dont insult my intel

peace be with you
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flashie
flashie: p.p.s. i do respect soldiers as its they who will have to get us all out of shit when it hits the fan. i hope the army revolt if this nwo bollocks gets too much momentum.
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davidk14
davidk14: We all should consider what we all actually want when we send troups into harms way. So I'm starting the list with three items:
1. US Soldiers, are to be highly trained to kill the enemy without fear.
2. When US troups are sent in on a mission, there might be colateral damage.
3. Colateral damage is acceptable because the mission was approved. Colateral damage is to be kept at a minimum when at all possible.

So...what is worth sending in US troups to support items one, two and three?
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hellov
hellov: Disputes will be there. All the disputes may be sorted out with dialogue in presence of United Nations, the universal policeman .There is no need to take law into their hand by any country.The discision should be binding on all the parties.If United nation fails to do its duty properly all out efforts should be done to further strenthen it.
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IamEggman
IamEggman: David. Number 3 contradicts number 1.
if you train young men to the point where they are capable of engaging in battle without fear, you have created psychopaths. And phychos with guns have a tendency to kill indiscriminately. Thus creating collateral damage.
And just because a mission is approved doesnt mean that it is a liscence to kill. No army wants robots. They need thinking individuals who are capable of assessing a situation. Especially with the kinds of missions the military are engaged in these days. With terrorists hiding in amongst civilian populations.
So justifying you are actions by saying the mission was approved wont do. The soldiers at Abu Grhaib prison were following commands sanctioned by politicians. But that doesnt excuse what they did.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: They are way out there John, yet the sad fact is that people here are gullible enough to believe it. Same goes for what has been happening in the Middle East everywhere. People are just so naive to the world they live in, that they are willing to believe anything they hear; as long as it sounds like a victim...it's called the sympathy card; and it has been used from Sunni tribes in Iraq; to Taliban leaders in Afghanistan/Pakistan, to the conflict in Israel...what I find funny is how hostile people get towards you when you point that out....seems the second you question Hamas' intentions, or state that Palestinian rebels are not justified in murdering innocent people; everyone labels you in favour of Israel murdering people...get your heads out of your asses people. I don't support the Israeli cases of killing innocent people; and for that reason, I surely do not support Hamas' rocket attacks killing thousands of Israelis because they are not Palestinian.


"(I refer to the Hamas gibberish about the Jews being behind all the Wars in history, Zionist Bankers ruling the world etc etc etc)."

...pretty sure there is a chapter in Hitler's "Mein Kampf" that speaks of just that.


""Your country is only there because your so called super power failed regardless of billions and education on that fateful day the world now refers to as 9/11...real super power !"

...actually I am a Canadian, and MY country is not there for any of those reasons. MY country is in Afghanistan, and Israel and no where else in the Middle East. The only troops Canada has in Iraq is members of the Joint Task Force 2, Canadian Special Forces; whose job is soley humanitarian aide. They have yet to fire a single round there.....seems your education is far more lacking on this subject redeye.

"And what a hide to state they fight the worlds problems when your filthy foreign policies create them...the list is endless...Vietnam just one of the many prefabricated ventures"

...so the documented evidence of the Viet Cong strapping dynomite to 6 year old kids was all a lie? The Viet Cong mass murdering villages in South Vietnam was all a lie too? You know nothing about Vietnam apart from what your hippy based propaganda movies tell you. Hollywood is not a credible source of history buddy; perhaps you should seek to find the real reasonings instead of stereotyping the United States based off of information from someone who has never studied into the facts. The French were in Vietnam far before the US; and it was to aide the French in getting out that put the US there in the first place.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "If your country fights the worlds problems...why did it take imploding buildings and a missing plane at the Pantagon on that morning to all of a sudden fight the worlds problems !"

Missing plane?? Oh, of course; after thousands of pounds of exploding jet fuel, surely there would have been the frame of an aluminium aircraft left behind....hey, while we're on this discussion, isn't it a bit suspicious that when a bomb is dropped, there is no steel left from the bombshell? I bet all those bombs dropped in WWII were all a big hoax too!

Okay mr engineer...How would the buildings have collapse had it "not" been from an "implosion". FYI, that was no implosion; to implode means that the force sucks inwards, and the blast of fire would not have shot out of the building then.

The World Trade Center was designed as a suspended building; meaning that the floor above was suspended by the floor below. When the structure was struck; the floor hit could not hold up the weight of the several floors above it; and so they gave way...and when they gave way, collapsing on the floors below, they shocked the whole structure; collapsing each floor at a time; kind of like a stack or cards in a cardhouse....EXACTLY like what happened on the television when I watched it with My own two eyes.


"United Nations and the Red Cross et al has and had a long list for your country...and did so before 9/11...where were your boys for Rwanda and every other world problem post 9/11 ?"

Rwanda was pre 9/11 not post 9/11, and if you look up the history for that nation, you will see that MY nation was there for it. UNAMIR, The United Nations Assistance MIssion for Rwanda, was headed by the force Commander Lt. Gen. Roméo Dallaire; from the Royal 22iéme Battallion of Valcartier, Quebec, Canada. My cousin was one of the Canadian peacekeepers there; and if you think you understand this whole mess, and Rwanda, then I surely suggest you rethink yourself. Our failure to prevent the massacre at Rwanda was the result of policy makers in the United Nations; people like you who do nothing but talk! Dallaire was ordered to stand down, because the UN hadn't discussed the duristiction outside of the hotel Dallaire and his men were protecting; and so, becuase of UN talkers, he was ordered to stand and watch; and only to fire at hostiles within the chainlink fence of their grounds. My cousin was one of many peacekeepers, alongside Dallaire, who stood there and watched people cut the heads off of babies soo young that their eyes were not even open yet; all the while laughing while throwing body parts and limbs at them. For 100 days, they stood and watched, and the UN told them to do NOTHING!

Dallaire was soo torn up by the failure of the UN to do anything, that it sent him into a downward spiral. He blamed himself for the mess; saying that he should have broke UN policy, despite landing him in jail, as it would have ended the genocide. Because of his experience with UN policy failing to prevent or do anything about it after it had already began; Dallaire has embarked upon a new journey; to see to it that the world does NOT make those same mistakes again. That is why he is an advocate to our troops in Afghanistan today. We are there to stop the people of Afghanistan going through a similar fate. What, because we failed in Rwanda, we should sit back and let it happen again to another country? You know nothing about what is going on in the Middle East, and if you think you know better than the men and women over there dealing with it right now, then by all means, pack your shit up and get over there and do it yourself!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "As like you done numerous times in South America...you only ever do anything to enhance your evil foreign policies and economy...to study your foreign policy makes me personally as sick as reading about peodophiles and sensless murderers and rapists...it's just as satanic."

Stereotyping and prejudice are the reasons that we are involved in these wars in the first place. I am NOT a US citizen, I have NEVER lived in the United States; and I do NOT fight for the United States government. I am a Canadian citizen by birth; have lived in Canada My whole life, and serve for the Canadian Forces. Your assumptions are the reasons for such hatred and misunderstanding in the world; it is people like you that are the problem, not the other way around. Perhaps you should get to know someone before judging them...and while you bring up the topic of them being as 'evil' as 'Satanists', does it not say in the bible "Judge not lest ye be judged"?


"And no...eye don't hate America...eye just don't like it...what a shame for the real intelligent Americans who are not brainwashed yet are stuck in it and with it"."

No one is stuck with it. If you don't like it, LEAVE! It's called freedom, and in the United States, people have the freedom to leave if they don't like it!



"Who says you have either?
So we are not allowed to have an opinion on these things?
If thats the case we really have to question your twisted idea of freedom."

You are free to have an opinion, but you should be intelligent enough to base it on FACT! So, again, I ask you, how many times have you been to the Middle East?


"And our armies going in there stealing their resources is going to help them is it?"

Prove this outbackjack! I fight for that Army, and I have NEVER taken any resources from them. Canada has far more oil than Iraq; and we produced nearly twice the barrels of oil that Iraq did last year. Canada has far more natural gas than Afghanistan, and we produce the vast majority of both oil and gas in the United States, and the majority of the world. If the US wanted to invade somewhere based on those resources, then why have they not invaded us here yet?


"Just think how these countries could flourish if they for the first time in centuries were in charge of their own destiny."

I agree, and that is why we are there giving them the chance to do just that. How can Afghanistan be in charge of their own destiny when the Taliban is murdering anyone trying to do just that? You really think it's better that Iraq live under the paranoid rule of a dysfunctional dictator hellbent on keeping his people subdued under his authority by denying them electricity, hospitals, fresh water; etc? You really think that Iraq is better off being forced to live under this man? Grow the hell up!
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "There is no shortage of people saying good riddance and throwing stones at U.S soldiers."

There are no shortage of the vast majority of people hugging American soldiers, inviting them into their houses, and providing them with intel to fight off the handfull of insurgents throwing rocks at US soldiers, as these are the same people trying to seize power away from the democratically elected government.


http://ca.news.y****.com/s/reuters/091025/world/international_us_iraq_violence

Does that sound like a peacefull solution to Iraq? Two suicide bombers killed 132 people in Baghdad, injuring 500 more, in an attempt to collapse the democratic government. Does this sound like the people of Iraq having a say for themselves to you?


"It is so ironic that the ISI (Pakistan Intelligence agency) played a huge part in founding the Taliban and supporting them."

HA HA HA. So, outbackjack, who is Mullah Muhammed Omar???

"Like I have said before,the war is spilling into Pakistan.The U.S invasion recruited a whole new layer of people to the Talibans cause."

...and like the Pakistani officials reported last week, the Taliban are no lovers of Islam, and they are an enemy to Pakistan!


"I thought Saddam hussein was dead????????"

I was unaware that when someone dies, they cease to have ever had a history. He is dead, hence I said "Wanted", past tense jack. You seriously have no idea about reality do you?


"I never said that all of the International forces were responsible for torture.The examples though are shocking and a lot of the information that has come out is a result of official enquiries."

Enquiries done by the United States Department of National Defence, or military as you civies know it. So because there were members of the Allies prosecuted in WWII for torturing Germans, does that undermine our entire efforts of WWII? Were we wrong to stop Hitler on that account?


"I say again,how do we know you havent?"

Beacuse I am the only one who knows what a US fireteam consists of, what US divisions are involved and where; and where and how they train. I am not the one posting information about how they fight, based off of what is seen in Hollywood movies outbackjack; I have seen them for real. They train extensively here in Canada; and if you don't believe Me that I have met them; that really doesn't break My heart.



"I dont condone any killing of innocents on any side in any conflict."


Then do not agree that we should put a stop to as much of the killing as we can?
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FogofWar
FogofWar: I am glad to see that on some accounts you are able to have a normal and rational discussion outbackjack:

"It could be argued that they are already putting their citizens at risk by taking more Palestinian territory in the West Bank and leaving their citizens on remote outposts."

I surely could be argued; but one has to weigh out the pros and cons of this. Ask yourself, what would be more of a threat to your people; continued rocket attacks from in range of your cities, or a group of rebels that your Armed Forces has proven can handle? It is a good point that a continued seperation between the two does nothing more than breed future hostilities that will continue for far longer; but one also must consider the threat of having these people in those areas. Israel has negotiated sitting down and discussing peacefully; but Hamas won't, and so I really don't see Israel having a choice to pull out of the West Bank at this time. Perhaps a UN style peacekeeping mission could help solve such a problem: keeping both sides out of reach.

"The U.N has repeatedly told Israel to return to pre 1967 borders which it ignores"

That is not entirely true. Israel has removed their Army from the Golan Heights on several accounts. To date the Golan Heights is held by UN peacekeepers as a demilitarized zone.

...and I do not argue that Israel has not always been unreasonable...both sides have; and it makes this whole topic harder to deal with because of it.

"What do you say about your precious U.S fog when they do this?"

First off, they are NOT MY US, I am a Canadian, and I fight for Canada; but I am able to see the bigger picture. The US is not our enemy; and quite frankly, neither is Israel or Palestine.



"just for the record, no i havent seen any 'action', thats not to say im a brat with a silver spoon either."

And I must say that I do respect that you are willing to admit that Flashie. No, you should not be. The media lies. They lie about the US torturing people when they are not, and at the same time, they lie about the governments being justified when they are not! One should not take anything from a single media source too seriously, and to that outbackjack, I would also like to point out that an intelligent man will not seek all his information solely online either. The internet is wrought with fraudulent claims. You can find sites that contain 'evidence' that the holocaust never happened. It's pretty easy for anyone to post absolutely anything online. The media is nothing more than a product being sold to the public; the more entertaining they make the story, the more people watch; and so no one should base opinions about ANYTHING, based solely off of what they see or read or hear from the media.
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FogofWar: Again, I say, there have been documented cases of US soldiers torturing people in Iraq; but those men have been prosecuted, and brought to justice. The military does not condone that sort of act, nor do they order their troops to commit it outbackjack. Those actions were solely the actions of the men responsible, and not of the Armed Forces. Of course, even in this case it's simple for you to sit back and say that it was wrong, and those men should't have done it; but few can say for sure what they would do in that situation. Put yourself into the shoes of a man armed with a gun, and tasked with taking out an enemy known for using such torturous methods on their people. I have seen Taliban insurgents drag men through the streets of Afghanistan with bags over their heads, beating them in public, and forcing children to watch as they murder their parents, to show what happens to those who resist them. You don't think at times I have wanted to see those a~zw&xy# suffer the same fates they have brought to thousands? It's an emotional thing being involved in war; and worse yet; when people do deal with these circumstances, their brains tend to get overloaded with stress and trauma from the experience. This is called post-traumatic stress disorder; and it happens to everyone who witnesses what their brain cannot comprehend; war! Some people see more than others, some can handle more than others; and because of all of these different variables, you have different levels of this disorder; and some are stricken worse than others, and some lose rational thought.

Lt. Gen. Dallaire attempted suicide three times after what he witnessed in Rwanda. Men have walked straight into imcoming fire because of this disorder; they have turned to drugs/alcohol. Some people become religious, a handful of others lose their faith; and in some cases it even resorts to rash actions against the enemy.

In WWII German mobilized divisions were ordered not to take POWs. Instead, they were ordered to break the Geneva Conventions and kill anyone captured. A Canadian company was taken POW, and killed. Canadian soldiers vowed to never take a German prisoner again, and every German that crossed the paths of a Canadian soldier was shot! Is this right? Well, no...but imagine standing there and watching men that you know better than your families; you have bled with, lived with, spent every waking minute with for years on end; being shot infront of you like that. Can you say what you would have done?

US soldiers torturing people in Iraq was wrong; but don't be soo quick to judge them on their actions; put in the same situations, with the same mental disabilities occuring, you may have done the same thing.
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FogofWar: "my flat mate spent more than 10yrs in service. various tours, iraq afghan ireland. intel. specialsed weapons. joined a satanic cult. is a freemason. has killed women, 'you have to they attack you', he's got a very dark heart and i belive him when he says civi life is harder than being in the army for him anyway. its fw^#*~ with his head. alot."

And that is a shining example of the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. A man suffering from this that badly is void; like he has no soul...you should feel fortunate enough to have a friend who was willing to put himself through that so that you did not have to.


"also i am good friends with a field nurse in what was blackwatch (not water) regiment."

I am familiar with the Blackwatch, they are a large part of our Canadian history from the world wars as well.

"ive heard stories of insurgents cutting the throat of an 11 yr old in front of his family, because the family spoke to british troops."

It happens often in these parts of the world....and it is easy for us here to turn a blind eye to that; or cast judgement on a soldier's actions after witessing that; but until one sees that first hand, they cannot say for sure what they would do. I pray that none of you have to see such horrors.

"my flatmate is similar to you in attitude fog. he says you have to be there to know what its like. he said its never for politics, but looking after his 'mates'."

That's why we call them our Brothers in Arms.


"but the facts remain. iraq is an illegal occupancy."

Iraq was never an illegal occupancy. The UN did not stop Bush from entering, because they had no power to; he abided by every law set forth by the United Nations. A member of the UN cannot opening invade another country, unless it is as a result of an ongoing campaign; or because there is reason to believe they may strike first....and that is the problem. If I was the President of the US, and I say that Russia has the nuclear power to take out the United States...is this not true? Yes, Russia does infact have that capability; so if I were to invade them on the idea that they might strike first, then how can the UN prove there was no intent? The UN is nothing more than a union board, that sits around making policies it cannot uphold...kinda like on Monty Python's Life of Brian.

The facts do remain:

Saddam Hussein attacked Iran in 1980; and caused a war that would last 8 years and cost over 1.5 million lives.
Saddam Hussein was fronted $40 billion from Kuwait for this war.
Saddam Hussein used illegal poison gases, considered a WMD to kill off over 100,000 Iranians and Kurds, his own people.
Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait illegally.
Saddam Hussein denied the most basic needs from his people including electricity and hospitals.
Saddam Hussein needed to be taken out.

That being said, I will state that I have never fully supported Bush's reasonings for going into Iraq; and I was not a supporter of him....but the fact still remains that Hussein needed to be stopped, and the US is, at this very moment, rebuilding a democratic Iraq, where the people of Iraq have the say in their own country.
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FogofWar
FogofWar: "those good and evil troops have no business in afghan except to profit for the governments/criminals who sent them there. the torture is disgusting."

Iraq and Afghanistan are two seperate nations, and two entirely different conflicts. The two are not linked, and the two cannot be discussed in the same. Afghanistan has nothing to do with business. The Taliban emerged from the Mujahadeen that fought against the Soviet invasion that began in 1979. Afghanistan is a strategic center for Asia, and as such, has been the target of much military campaign over the last few hundred years that led to the state it is in today....wouldn't you say it is about time that we ended that and helped rebuild it for herself to rule?


"All the disputes may be sorted out with dialogue in presence of United Nations, the universal policeman ."

...except in the case of the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Rwanda, Bosnea, Iraq (back in 1991 when Kuwait was being taken over), Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc.

The UN is nothing more than policymakers that would have you think they are solving problems when really they are not. Ask anyone who has dealt first hand with them; they are no different than the politicians you deal with, and in some cases worse. Lt. Gen. Dallaire speaks about his time serving with the UN, and these policy makers. He pleaded with them to get the numbers of troops and resources needed for Rwanda, but they refused, because there was no political gain in it for them. As Dallaire said, the UN is a group of men who want to capitalize on these world issues, but have someone else to fall on and lay the blame when shit goes wrong. Talking didn't end WWI and WWII. Talking didn't prevent the Korean and Vientman wars. talking didn't stop Hussein from invading Kuwait. Talking didn't stop the Taliban in 1996, and it didn't prevent 9/11. The only us for the UN is peacekeeping missions, and even that, only if there is another force to oversee it, like NATO. The UN sent peacekeepers into Bosnea and watched as Milosovic mass murdered people in his 'ethnic cleansing'; and it was NATO that came in to save the day when the UN did nothing. The world doesn't need policy makers, it needs people to uphold policy. Remember what happened to the League of Nation???

"There is no need to take law into their hand by any country.The discision should be binding on all the parties."

...and when it is not; then what?

"If United nation fails to do its duty properly all out efforts should be done to further strenthen it."

I do agree here; but perhaps it is time that the UN be, if not replaced, then remolded into a structure that works. Writing international laws does nothing if you are not going to uphold them.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weopons."
-Gen. Douglas MacArthur
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